Phone Call from Customs and Excise

[fatfires]

you dont think they have bumped it up so gordon (our saviour..) can announce a huge cut in tax to save the world? so, so, cynical...

You cynical?...................... ....................
join the club!!

[the careful driver]

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/media/...C892ACBE55.pdf


Keith, reference this Treasury paper on the governments wish to promote Biofuels in general. Note chapter 2, Biofuels.


Why doesn't the tax department talk to the treasury?


Perhaps ask them to?


Peter

[the careful driver]

Notice this quote, from government literature.


See the reference page in the reply above. Note 2.3


"The governments primary aim in deciding upon duty rates for alternative fuels is the environmental impact, although other factors, including social and economic impacts, will also be taken into account when setting duty rates."


So the main criteria for this reduced duty rate is not the cost of setup, (as the tax people said to you) but the environmental impact.


Hm.

[the careful driver]

Keith see .. :

http://www.publications.parliament.u...t/50406-24.htm



Quote from Hansard - discussion in the House of Commons

Quote :

Mr. Timms:

"The right hon. Member for Fylde (Mr. Jack) will have heard me refer earlier to the continued discussions with industry about the possibility of providing an enhanced capital allowance for the cleanest processing plants, [Insert from me, Peter - this means to help the development of processing plants and biofuel infrastrucutre setup] which would directly address the issue that he raises.[infrastructure setup - P]

However, he would agree that the key prerequisite is to have an attractive market for suppliers to address.

So, as we confirmed in the pre-Budget report, we are carrying out a feasibility study on the renewable transport fuels obligation, and good progress has been made in that study. That is the reason why we introduced the 20p a litre incentive for biodiesel in 2002, and the same differential for bioethanol from 1 January this year. "

Quote Ends


Whatever the tax departments legal team has said, the biofuel reduced duty incentive is to create a vibrate biofuel market, not primarily to help develop biofuel infrastructure setup.

This is the reason given in a direct answer in the house of commons to a question about the development of the uk biofuel industry. Mr Timms is the government spokesperson.

They got it wrong again.

I wonder how much public money it cost them to get that legal advice?

;-)
P

[KeithP]

Kept you waiting long enough, here it is

With great thanks to Careful Driver for demistifying the FOI, and everyone else who has contributed. I have used what I thought was suitable and added a little bit here and there to try and keep it in my style of writing (good or bad). Lets see what I get back from this, sorry if its a bit long.

Anyone else out there wants to have a go at them please feel free to use whatever from my posts on this thread.


Dear ******,
Thank you for your reply received 10th November 2005.

I would like to address the matters raised in your reply and provide corrections to what I can only term as anomalies contained there in which either do not conform to said Act or appear to be in direct contravention of apparent Government policies.

With reference to your decision to base refusal to release information relating to the advice given to the Commissioners.

Reference to section 42 would infer you have a legal dispute already in question, can you confirm or deny this.

Section 35 subsection 2 states:

(2) Once a decision as to Government policy has been taken, any statistical information used to provide an informed background to the taking of the decision is not to be regarded

(a) for the purposes of subsection (1)(a), as relating to the formulation or development of Government policy,

You as agents of Government policy have decided what that policy is thereby negating the need to withhold it from the general public or the protection afforded under this act, therefore all discussion leading up to the decision as to how to implement this policy is releasable (see note 2 above).

Section 35 part 2 effectively annuls this licence to withhold information, ONCE THE DECISION HAS BEEN MADE, unless the decision is mere opinion and not based on statistical evidence or fact.

Subsection 5 states
"the Law Officers" means the Attorney General, the Solicitor General, the Advocate General for Scotland, the Lord Advocate, the Solicitor General for Scotland and the Attorney General for Northern Ireland;

Please confirm that the advice you have received is from one of the above. If not then again the information is not afforded protection under this act.

With reference to your reasoning that the reduced duty was intended to offset any additional cost of producing this chemically altered fuel substitute. You are wrong. Both in reference to ‘ECAs for Biofuels A Stake holder Document October 2004’ produced by HM Treasury Section 2.3 clearly states that ‘The Government’s primary aim in deciding on duty rates for alternative fuels is the environmental impact, although other factors, including social, and economic impacts, may also be taken into account when setting duty rates.’ and the following :

Quote from Hansard - discussion in the House of Commons

Quote :

Mr. Timms:

"The right hon. Member for Fylde (Mr. Jack) will have heard me refer earlier to the continued discussions with industry about the possibility of providing an enhanced capital allowance for the cleanest processing plants, which would directly address the issue that he raises.
However, he would agree that the key prerequisite is to have an attractive market for suppliers to address. So, as we confirmed in the pre-Budget report, we are carrying out a feasibility study on the renewable transport fuels obligation, and good progress has been made in that study. That is the reason why we introduced the 20p a litre incentive for biodiesel in 2002, and the same differential for bioethanol from 1 January this year. "

Quote Ends.

the biofuel reduced duty incentive is to create a vibrate biofuel market, not primarily to help develop biofuel infrastructure setup.

This is the reason given in a direct answer in the house of commons to a question about the development of the uk biofuel industry. Mr Timms is the Government spokesperson.

With reference to your costs regarding information retrieval.

I would have hoped a Government department such as you would have held all registrations on a database. Being a Database Administrator by profession I would have expected to be able to produce such information broken down as requested in perhaps a mornings work. My current day rate is £585, I think you have either seriously overestimated your costs or you may not have the calibre of staff required to fulfill your department or the necessary technical infrastructure to support it. If that may be the case I could suggest the company that employs me to outsource your IT department.

Finally concerning my request for re-instatement as a biodiesel producer.

Not withstanding any of the legal refinements of the comments above, your decision must be clear and salient in your letters to me. Any reasons you have for either agreeing or not agreeing to register me as a biodiesel producer must be clearly stated. As such no new information that confirms your stance on this is evident in 179e or your reply to me. Straight Vegetable Oil meets the fiscal definition of a biodiesel as defined in 179e. Are you not aware that vegetable oil used in whatever proportions with conventional diesel is more environmentally friendly than fuel produced using the method referred to in previous correspondence.

You have not answered my question on this matter, ie. Are you going to re-instated me as a biodiesel producer or not and if not your reason for this.

Please feel free to reply via email rather than the conventional postal system as this will obviously reduce your costs in dealing with this matter.

Yours faithfully

Keith

Just as an after thought, if I am succesful in this endevour, any chance of this being stickied for others benefit

Keith

[the careful driver]

Yeah, go for it!

I like the summary at the end

Send it and let's wait the 20 days......

Well done Keith

Peter

[Tallyman]

Mentioned this problem to our corporate tax lawyer in work. Says this is probably down to GB having f****d up the economy and therefore the tax take AND that HMR&C people are now targeted and incentivised to collect more tax. So if you end up paying more, Mr tax collector gets a BONUS on top of his index linked pension, that you'll be paying for out of your own meagre pension pittance when you retire!!!

And I though the Human Rights Act was supposed to STOP governments from abusing their citizens.

[the careful driver]

[QUOTE=Tallyman]HMR&C people are now targeted and incentivised to collect more tax . . . Mr tax collector gets a BONUS on top of his index linked pension
QUOTE]

I think that is more ammo for us if we ever get to court. Just put it in front of the court.

It is a bit like the miss-sold pensions. Miss-targetted taxes.

[KeithP]

Hello everyone.

Just an update, little bit quicker this time.

Just states 'your request is now being considered'

Also it looks like the regional team have pushed it up to people in

Customer & Corporate Focus Team
Excise & Stamp Taxes Product & Process Group
Ralli Quays, Manchester

Anyone else had dealings/correspondence with this lot?

Regards
Keith

[fatfires]

Hello everyone.

Just an update, little bit quicker this time.

Just states 'your request is now being considered'

Also it looks like the regional team have pushed it up to people in

Customer & Corporate Focus Team
Excise & Stamp Taxes Product & Process Group
Ralli Quays, Manchester

Anyone else had dealings/correspondence with this lot?

Regards
Keith

He. He. - looks like your letter has gone beyond their aprehention - if in doubt escalate it!!!! A Focus team eh! perhaps they can read and write joined up english not like the others ...know someone that can.....perhaps......possibly
keep bashing mate

P.s. Tesco rapeseed 3Ltrs £1.25 today

[the careful driver]

www.bio-power.co.uk/hmce


This chap helps co-ordinate a group of stations that sell a sort of 'Vegoil with thinners'. Ie a green fuel, but thinned by cutting it with something else (his secret recipe I think).

He has some interesting communications with various departments on the above link.

Peter

[Rica]

When you read the reply sent to my earlier request for information you will weep. They copped out.

Any thoughts from anyone?

I am getting together a suitable reply. I still don't think they have answered my question about re-registering me as a 'biodiesel' producer and from what I can see on the amended 179e (which I just recieved a shiney new copy of through (typo the f1nger5 are fa5t3r than the brain :0( )the post) veg oil still meets their 'fiscal definition'

Regards all
Keith

Keith

I wrote virtually the same letter to them some weeks ago now (thank you everyone who put stuff up so I could copy it) (must chase upthe fact they should have replied by now) so I expect to receive the same reply. Surely if we split the cost then it will be less than £600? (sorry couldn't get your thumbnails big enuff to read clearly). Perhaps we could ask for half the info each or do a 'joint' letter?

Rica

[Chillitt]

anybody hear if there was anything in the budget statement today? i heard him blathering on about ' commitment to carbon reduction and sustainable fuels' and found myself kicking the tobacco juice out of the radio, and it dont work now...

[andycook]

read this on BBC so far "There will be tax breaks for bio-fuels and more support for clean coal technology. "

[Rica]

read this on BBC so far "There will be tax breaks for bio-fuels and more support for clean coal technology. "

As an aside:

There is an SVO conference this saturday (10th Dec) at the Novotel, Union Street, Wolverhampton held by biopower. To discuss setting up an association to deal with these customs issues. Anyone interested should contact Bio-Power UK Ltd 01286 830312 re tickets. PS I'm not bio-power member but use SVO. I will be taking along some print outs of the discussions here that contain useful 'legal' info.
If anyone is going from Bristol would they like to lift share?