Phone Call from Customs and Excise

[KeithP]

Letter arrived advising of change of status

Hello everyone, just an update on progress so far..
Following my conversation with the person concerning my change to being a fuel substitute producer and not biodiesel I have received from HM Revenue and Customs an anonymous letter to the effect.

They could not even bother to sign it!

After requesting exact quotes and references to what laws they were using as a reference in making this decision all as I have is www.hmce.gov.uk and public notices 179E and 75.

I am now preparing a suitable reply as to why they have continued with this change.

Any one got any comments to add that I may use. I shall be sending my reply in a couple of days..

Keep you posted

Regards
Keith

[Chillitt]

once you have reached a dead end, which seems sadly inevitable when dealing with government, it might be informative to hit the freedom of information button and ask for any internal memos with your name on about this... just a thought

[POPEYE]

Still waitin for my bits to be deliverd so I can run a dual tank system properly getting a bit impatient now The job lot cost about £80 better than the over priced kits off the net.

Come on Mister posty I got a free weekend to chop bits out of the surf !

Nobody had a reply from HM C&E yet concerning why veg isn't good enough for Diesel quality?

Only thing I can think of is the viscosity of it when its cold as they could argue the fact that it won't "run " any diesel engine.

Answers plz !

Hi Donk-UK Any chance you can run a " how i did it" sort of article on obtaining the parts and fitting the duel system, Only when your sorted out leaglly of
course, Was that 80 quid for the bits or 80 quid cheaper than the kits, Im a low milage user so a kit is impractical, take me years to get my money back,
Idownloaded a how to on a kit some one on here fitted and all looked pretty stright forward although i dont like the idea of the second tank in the back of
the truck, much prefer a underslung one, The change over valve seems to be the only thing i'd have trouble with, Im a plumber by the way so fabing pipe ok, thought of central heating three port motor valve for the changover, removethe motor and replace with a 12v unit, reduce down from 22m to hose
size (whatever that might be) using micro bore 8,10 or12m failing being able to fita 12v motor how about a cable opperated valve, choke cable type
thing, i dont know what do you think, By the way what a great thread
I wish i was able to voice my opinion with such elequance (did i spell that right) see what i mean cheers mate

[KeithP]

Nice one Chillit, I think I will not only have a read up on that but also the data protection act. Having followed up on what I can so far as indicated in the letter it would appear they are still making decisions based on 'someones' interpretation of old information. References to 179E and 75 are all out of date and being replaced. I am wondering if they are basing their interpretation on info that is yet to be released into the public domain.

While I think about it I'm gathering as much info about the Hydrocarbons fuel act 1979 as I can but I only seem to be able to get bits and peices, plus amendments. Besides actually going down to the library and scanning in the whole act has anyone got any links that they think will lead to a full version of it.

Regards
Keith

[Matt the Cat]

Have a look at some of these threads. Seems to be a lot of legal-type stuff. Could be of some use to you KeithP
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/...lay.php?fid=20

[KeithP]

New Letter arrived today

Many thanks for the link, very interesting reading, although it might just be me but I sense a little bit of 'interested' parties which could do damage to the point which I/we are trying to make. The solicitor's offer was very nice, the idea good, but would not several thousand seperate lots of appeals/questions being raised cause more concern..I'm not too sure about people setting up as action groups unless they can see beyond any bias and truly represent the people they profess to. Typical example might be our current gove...... no better not go there

Anyway I have attached a letter that I have received today (parts are cut out purely to protect the poor individual who replied, I think I might feel sorry for them if they suddenly got inundated..even if it is part of their job). The letter is in reply to my previous. Interesting about the FOI point there...

As soon as I have formulated my reply will post and advise.
Regards
Keith

[Chillitt]

also, whats the score with using a fuel allowance to buy svo/wvo?
not that i have one...

[the careful driver]

Sir Humphry

The letter you attached was a 'Sir Humphrey' letter wasn't it ? !

It is beginning to sound a bit like 'The Trial' (by Kafka), which I think they want it to.

Just for a short-cut, you could go to court on this and flush them out.

I think the published legal documentation and definitions say clearly that Veg Oil is a Bio Fuel, as opposed to this vague 'advice' (which it appears they can make up as they like) is very shakey on their side. They are simply WRONG and it is okay to be assertive and argue that. I think you could simply write to them, tell them they are WRONG (which is okay) and get them to take you to court. But, it may or may not be a bit costly in time, money and stress.

The other thing of course, if you want to go Bio, is to use Biodiesel, if you can find a B100 Biodiesel supplier. I am currently trying to set up a site in Berkhamsted.

The tax office statement (their hokey 'advice') is impenetrable because they are in fact, making it up as they go along (!!). It is a deliberate Fog tactic. For your info, Inland Revenue is currently being taken over by Customs and Excise a bit of a meaner beast ( I believe they are being amalgamated) , and has also been targeted on collecting 2 billion pounds extra revenue from existing sources. So they are 'trying on' everything they can to raise funds. Even if they make it up as they go along ?

Carry on the good work. I think from every legal published standpoint you have won all the arguments. They simply haven't accepted it yet. You can simply re-state your case, refute their 'advice' (what kind of legal status is that!! - unpublished 'advice' - I asked my mom ! ), and tell them NO and ask them to reply.

Please note, the 'advice' they talked of in their original letter to you was 'legal advice'. If that was their 'advice' it is simply the same as saying 'opinion'. And that would be the opinion of a wooly-worded lawyer who did not understand about esters as much as you do. Ie, although you have won every legal written argument, someone has the 'opinion' that you are wrong. Que? Would that stand up in a court of law?

My tuppence! Thanks for keeping us updated on your correspondence. I am very interested how this turns out.

Peter

[CaptainBeaky]

OK, so the definition of Biodiesel is taken from HODA 1979, and is still current.
BUT, stating that "the advice given to the Commissioners...2005... is intended to supplement rather than contradict the information given in the Business Brief regarding 'diesel quality fuel'" is just WRONG, or to put it another way, a bare-faced lie. George Orwell would be proud of this perfect example of 'double-think'.

I have a nasty feeling that the only way this will get settled is by taking it to court for a test-case, in which case: time for a whip-round!

Anyway, vegetable oil as processed is treated -

a. Treated to remove sulphur (because it poisons the catalyst used in the production process)
b. Treated to ensure it is well in excess of 96.5% esters (i.e. to keep the free glycerol levels down).
This treatment (by the oil manufacturer) ensures that it meets the specifications set out in HODA 1979.

This needs to be out in front of an interested MP - anyone know of a receptive MP on this issue?

[the careful driver]

Vegetable Oil is modified anyway..

For your info, Vegetable Oil is modified.

Pure pressed vegetable oil is full of bits.

The stuff you buy in the supermarket is filtered, and it is de-gummed (whatever that is) during the refining process.

I couldn't quite find the link I wanted, but this is an article about what happens when you use crude palm oil as a fuel....

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_SVO-Allen.html

Fyi

So they are WRONG on that too.

Pg

[Donk_UK]

HI all this is for IAN169 I got hte valves from RS they are actually 12volt tap soleniod valves and they are just over a tenner each. Im not at work or I would quote you the number. I have'nt fitted them yet but they come out at 15mm then I plan to use a 15mm to 10 mm reducer and then use flexy hose to connect it to the exsisting fuel line as its hard piped.
I've just got my heater matrix thingy installed at the moe ( which is justa fancy name for routing my hot water on the surf from my rear heater matrix blower for the back seats into 15mm copper pipe underneath the fuel tank inbetween the bash plate and the tank ) Seems to warm it up to about 24'c in around 10 mins not that my thermometer is very acurate as its on top of the fuel tank rather than in it.

The bits and bobs for my kit were around £80 not £80 cheaper ! I couldnt suss out how I would fill a fuel tank with diesel from under the car so Im hoping to add a small jerry can in the boot which willbe hard piped in as it will be easier to fill up. Sorry for late reply mate been busy boy laterly.

HM sent me a ****py reply too basically said you don't meet with the HDO act. SO I got a nice nasty letter to send back not that it will do any good by the sound sof it

Good work to all that have fed this thread, does the transesterifcated oil run in any diesel car and does it need heat?

[CaptainBeaky]

does the transesterifcated oil run in any diesel car and does it need heat?

THe transesterification process converts the vegoil from an assortment of glycerol/fatty acid esters to a collection of methyl esters of the same fatty acids. Basically removing the glycerol from the compound and substituting methanol instead.
The net result is to reduce the viscosity at a given temperature, and to reduce the freezing and gel points, so no, it shouldn't need heating.

Then again, you can achieve the same reduction in viscosity and freeze/gel point by mixing with mineral diesel or petrol.

[Donk_UK]

So fairly safe to say it would run on any diesel car then me thinks?

[andycook]

2nd reply from customs

Finally got a reply from customs - I sent them a letter after they would register me at the lower duty rate - stating why i thought SVO met their criteria.
Along with my protest I asked to be registered anyway so that i could start using SVO - so now having to pay 47.1p a litre
suppose paying 90ppl for fuel is better than 97ppl+

and hopefully they will backdown one day and re-instate the 27ppl tax,
and they backpay the overcharge - yeah right....

so i can do my bit for enviroment and save a bit of cash

[CaptainBeaky]

So fairly safe to say it would run on any diesel car then me thinks?

Some will run it better than others - something to do with the diesel pump. See Morr's sticky thread "Thinking of using Veg-Oil" for more info.

If you reduce the viscosity profile (i.e the viscosity at room temperature AND the variation with temperature) to the same as that of dino-diesel, I can't see any reason why it shouldn't work in any diesel engine, although I have no empirical proof of this