Phone Call from Customs and Excise

[KeithP]

Hello all,
Just a quick update before the reply goes off. I have been speaking to people who have taken this type of dispute up with 'governing' bodies, so to speak, and the advice is don't go for a body of representation. Each and every individual that has this problem should pursue it on their own.

If I/we are represented by a group, how ever well meaning, then what happens is only one case is brought to court, if it goes that far. It is far better that they get hit with multiple cases from individuals disputing the facts. Each has to have a response.

I will post my letter to go this w/e.

I would point out that at this moment I am not using any solicitors or legal advice other that what I have either obtained from this forum or other available information in the public domain. If I do get any information back under the FOI act I will be posting it for all.

Regards
Keith

[KeithP]

Here is the letter that has been sent

Hello everyone, rather than attach the actual document I have sent I've cut and pasted the body of the text below. Feel free to comment, constructive or other wise and to use any parts in your own correspondence. Although on that matter ensure that you re-word as best you can. There is an exemption under the FOI if they think a campaign is being waged.

I would appreciate any feedback from any solicitors out there that we might have.

I have again omitted names/tel nos because if we have different contact points with them we stand more chance of getting a different/contradictory reply.

Regards
Keith

The main text is:

Dear Mrs ******,

Thank you for your letter dated 11th October 2005 ref BD/***/05.

There are again several points on which I wish to refer and in addition for this letter to be taken as a request for information under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 Section 1 and Section 8, subsection 2.
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First the information I request is for two pieces of information.
1. In relation to the advice to which you refer that has been given to the Commissioners that is not as yet available concerning why vegetable oil does not meet the definition of biodiesel under the Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1979 which as you say is still current.
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2. I would like to know the numbers of individuals/producers you have registered who as far as you are aware meet the following criteria:
Prior to 1st August 2005.
1. Were registered as fuel substitute producers.
2. Were registered as biodiesel producers.
3. Were registered as biodiesel producers, have received an inspection and are known to be using the transesterification process to which you refer.
4. Were registered as biodiesel producers, have received an inspection and were using WVO/SVO and known to not be using the transesterification process to which you refer.

After the 31st August 2005
1. Are or have been re-registered as fuel substitute producers having previously been registered as biodiesel producers.
2. Are still registered as biodiesel producers.
3. Are still registered as biodiesel producers, have received an inspection and are known to be using the transesterification process to which you refer.
4. Are still registered as biodiesel producers and have not received an inspection but have stated they are using the transesterification process.
5. Are registered as biodiesel producers, have received an inspection and were using WVO/SVO and known to not be using the transesterification process to which you refer.

Referring now to your reply and my subsequent change of status to a ‘Fuel substitute producer’. On this matter if I am registered as a fuel substitute producer then the fuel I am producing, if it is substituting in part or whole diesel quality fuel must by its nature be of ‘diesel quality’ as referred to as per HODA (2)(a). So as such negates your statement not meeting diesel quality and your reference to such in your previous letter.

There remains then the question of whether or not vegetable oil meets the biodiesel specification. If as you say my quote from the Business Brief concerning the definition of biodiesel was correct and that the Business Brief is current then vegetable oil does meet the biodiesel specification.
Based on this and until either new legislation is introduced or the terms referred to in the Business Brief are changed I would like to make a formal request for my status to be re-registered as a biodiesel producer.

I would also like to advise you that I have received a letter from your Mineral Oil Relief Centre advising me that with effect from 6th October 2005 the Commissioners regard me as a fuel substitute producer. This letter has neither signature nor name appended to it and as such I believe would not stand as a legal document in court should I wish to pursue the matter. Can you please advise your team to re-send the letter and put a name and signature to it.

I look forward to hearing from you on these matters.

Yours sincerely,

[CaptainBeaky]

Good letter, Keith

Would be most helpful to get an opinion from someone legally qualified.

Will wait with interest to see the reply.

Regards

[KeithP]

thanks for the compliments Captain Beakey. I have to admit that at the moment I am not in a position to pursue this with solicitors ,but the next step following an unfavourable reply will be to involve my local MP. Putting all the dialogue before him in time order and asking him to pursue it.

Regards
Keith

[POPEYE]

HI all this is for IAN169 I got hte valves from RS they are actually 12volt tap soleniod valves and they are just over a tenner each. Im not at work or I would quote you the number. I have'nt fitted them yet but they come out at 15mm then I plan to use a 15mm to 10 mm reducer and then use flexy hose to connect it to the exsisting fuel line as its hard piped.
I've just got my heater matrix thingy installed at the moe ( which is justa fancy name for routing my hot water on the surf from my rear heater matrix blower for the back seats into 15mm copper pipe underneath the fuel tank inbetween the bash plate and the tank ) Seems to warm it up to about 24'c in around 10 mins not that my thermometer is very acurate as its on top of the fuel tank rather than in it.

The bits and bobs for my kit were around Ł80 not Ł80 cheaper ! I couldnt suss out how I would fill a fuel tank with diesel from under the car so Im hoping to add a small jerry can in the boot which willbe hard piped in as it will be easier to fill up. Sorry for late reply mate been busy boy laterly.

HM sent me a ****py reply too basically said you don't meet with the HDO act. SO I got a nice nasty letter to send back not that it will do any good by the sound sof it

Good work to all that have fed this thread, does the transesterifcated oil run in any diesel car and does it need heat?

Hi Donk, Thats quite alright, 80 quids not bad at all big dif to some of the kits,
plus i enjoy messing about making stuff, Dosent seem to difficult to rig up
especilly when compaired to the Legal side of things, Tank filling as you say
presents a bit of a problem, I have altered the filler neck of a petrol tank,
by brazing extension tube to it, as long as the tanks removed and filled with
water it wont blow up, Also needed is a second tank fuel gauge, saw one
on one of the 4x4 accessory sites, quite expensive but nice looking,
Anyhow thanks for the reply, Good luck with this, Ian

Ihad an after thought Donk, Re:~ the extension to the heating (to heat the
tank) will this cause any problems when changing coolant, I understand
even the standard set up can "air lock" and need burping, Although thinking
about it the engines running while burping and any air should eventually pass
through, may have to burp it a little longer, cheers mate,

[KeithP]

Err, with all due respect Donk and Ian, could you start another thread with this line on tank conversions. I'm trying to address a different problem here and keeping everyone upto date on it.

Regards
Keith

[chunkymonkey]

Have you been on the biopower website - www.bio-power.co.uk they are having the same problems and have been contacting MP's etc... there are a few representative letters on the site etc etc - worth a look

[CaptainBeaky]

Have you been on the biopower website - www.bio-power.co.uk they are having the same problems and have been contacting MP's etc... there are a few representative letters on the site etc etc - worth a look

Just been reading through the BioPower site - I am rather disturbed to see John Nicholson's continued assertion that any BioDiesel MUST be made from WVO, not SVO.

He makes this assertion almost as an aside in several of his published letters to HMCE, and elsewhere on his site asserts that:
- vehicles running on SVO may have difficulty getting insured
- the legislation states that BioDiesel must be made from Waste materials to qualify for the lower tax rate
- SVO is unsuitable for use as a road fuel because,

This material is highly selected for use as a food. it is then processed to make it of a very consistent molecular form. This processing does not add any value to its use as a fuel, indeed we find that fuel made from moderately used oil is better than fuel made from virgin oil, probably because of the greater variety of molecular types

All 3 assertions are, quite frankly a load of ballcocks

Anyone on here have trouble getting insured using SVO?

I have read the relevant bits of HODA 1979, Finance Act 2002 and the HMCE Business Brief, and NOWHERE does it state that Bioidiesel must be made from WVO.
The requirements are, to repeat:
> 96.5% ester content
< 0.05% sulphur content
Of "diesel quality" (ie will run a diesel engine).

Also, note the logical disconnect/non sequitur in the last assertion:

There are three statements made:
Food grade SVO is highly processed. TRUE
The processing does not add any value for fuel use. TRUE
WVO is better. UNSUPPORTED ASSERTION, with no causal link to the previous 2 statements.

Also - "probably due to the greater variety of molecular types".

Just how is a greater variety of molecular types supposed to improve the fuel qualty, how has it been measured, and who measured it?

The owner of this website is spouting c r a p to protect his own business, to the detriment of those trying to use SVO, which as he admits, is better for the environment as it requires LESS processing!

I would also contend that anyone who can infer the existence of, and then use, the word "discriminately" on a public forum should be viewed with the deepest suspicion!

[Matt the Cat]

Spot on mate. Mr Bio-Power is very obviously trying protect his own intrests by virtually turning on those of us that wish to use SVO. Lets hope he doesn't become a self appointed spokesperson on this subject as he will only twist and confuse the issue further to suit himself!!

[Conquering Lion]

suitable for use in a diesel engine

As someone has mentioned previously mineral diesel fuel gels at low temperatures; you can still buy "anti-gelling" agents in bottles from most Motor Factors. Thus, if you have to mix this in during cold weather then mineral diesel (or DERV (diesel essence road vehicle)) to run your engine then surely C&E's whole argument is based upon the different gelling points of veg oil and DERV.
Peugeots are built with heated fuel lines to overcome this problem, just like my heater for my veg-oil. Also I know that trucks built for Arctic work also have heated fuel tanks to stop the DERV gelling. They won't run on DERV without these heaters.
Hope you can all see my point here.
Have been a biodiesel producer for 2 years now but am waiting with apprehension for my letter.

[Surf01]

Perhaps some one should buy a cheap diesel car, sign up with a RAC package that includes free legal aid and then make sure that they are caught by Customs and Excise and use the RAC legal aid to defend the case. Also make sure that the judge drives a diesel powered vehicle!
I am surprised that the RAC & AA are not pushing this harder. Is there a reason for them ignoring the issue besides being scared of the environmentalists?

[POPEYE]

Err, with all due respect Donk and Ian, could you start another thread with this line on tank conversions. I'm trying to address a different problem here and keeping everyone upto date on it.

Regards
Keith

Ummmmmmmmmm Sorry Keith, got carried away,

[KeithP]

Hi Ian,
No probs, got a feeling in the near future I may be asking you more questions on the tank conversions. Problem is I keep chucking in the o'l veg stuff and it runs like a dream. Admittidly (is that the wright spelling ;-) )
we have not had any cold weather yet. Currently running about 60/40 veg/derv, still not got round to changing the filter yet either. Got a feeling that ones gonna bite me shortley.

Regards
Keith

Just thought I'd add... no reply yet from C& E. Must check, but I believe they have 14 days to acknowledge and reply to my questions..or at least confirm receipt of my enquiry

Keith

[ni9eofse7en]

Government wants to go down bio fuel route

On channel 4 news last night, there was a piece on the labour goverment aiming to promote the use of bio fuels. It said how far we are behind other european nations and the U.S.

No surprises though, as the gov talks the talk, but does not want to fund the walk (bit lame I know).

Anywho's there's me thinking that maybe we should highlight the fact to the press, that as per this thread, instead of promoting the use of bio fuels, the governments departments are actively seeking to cripple/sponge it financially, and therefore undermine the progress towards the use of bio fuels.

What do you think?

[the careful driver]

maybe we should highlight the fact to the press, that . . instead of promoting the use of bio fuels, the governments departments are actively seeking to cripple/sponge it financially
What do you think?

I think that might not be a bad idea, but write to C&E first and let them reply to tell them we are going to do that first to let them get their case in order so they can explain why they are letting the ice-caps melt and the hurricanes increase (according to current green thought)

Not quite as much fun as using Max Clifford first though