Phone Call from Customs and Excise

[kazam401]

Great Post............KEEP IT GOING.....you seem to be getting C&E backed into a corner

[FlySurfer - Edy.]

I am a (degree-qualified) chemist, and FlySurfer Edy's degree is Enviromental Physical Science with chemistry (did I remember that right, Phil?). And that is "chemist", not "pharmacist". I do not work in Boots...

And I didn't get the previous rant text off Google, either! (apart form the quoted text from GNN)


Do we have any lawyers on board?

Beaky is right - I studied Environmental Physical Science at liverpool and got an honours at it too...

that did encompas pharma and all diciplines of chemistry...

You have Chemists.

[KeithP]

My reply

Well, here is what I sent back.. I did get a reply but due to the usual statements at the bottom of corporate mails I will not be posting it, other to than say the person had to refer it to her 'colleagues who are
better placed to answer you.'

The reply was: (and I apologise for any taken out of context, or misquotes, bear in mind I am not a chemist or solicitor, and also with thanks to the information from the people who contribute etc..)

Dear Mrs Bailey,
Thank you for your letter mentioned above which I received today. There
are a couple of points that I wish to bring to your attention. Perhaps you
could forward them on to the relevent people if you are not able to deal
with them directly.

In your letter you state that
'the Commissioners have concluded that vegetable oil (whether used or
unused) must be processed by some method which converts the oil into a fuel suitable for use in a diesel engine'

On this point I would refer you to your own Business Brief 10/05 which
states
'Diesel quality fuel' means that the product must be capable of being used
for the same purposes as ordinary diesel. This means that it will run, in a
blend, an engine that would normally run on diesel.
This does not mean that the 'biofuel' must be able to run the engine
exclusively. Most vehicles require a blend of biodiesel (approx 5 per cent)
and ordinary diesel (approx 95 per cent) to meet manufacturers'
specifications.

Your own business brief does not state anything about convertion.

From the same Business Brief your definition of biodiesel is
'Biodiesel is a diesel quality fuel that is produced from either biomass or
waste cooking oil. It must also meet the following conditions:
a.. the ester content must be no less than 96.5 per cent by weight and
b.. the sulphur content must not exceed 0.005 per cent by weight, or be
nil.'
Vegetable oil meets and exceeds the above specification without
modification. My vehicle will run, unmodified, on a blend of vegetable oil
and ordinary diesel.

Also from your own Business Brief 10/05 under the heading 'How does a
product meet the biodiesel specification' it says
'Any product that does not meet the Biodiesel specification will be
considered a fuel substitute and will attract the appropriate duty rate.'

As I have already said vegetable oil meets and exceeds the above. Analysis
of which can be provided by any vegetable oil manufacturer.

I have also pasted in below a reply received from one manufacturer that was
posted on a web site.
'Thank you for contacting KTC (Edibles) Limited.


All vegetable oils are triglycerides. That is, they are made up of a
single molecule of glycerol (which looks like a capital letter "E") with
three fatty acids attached to each "arm". The fatty acids are the bits
which are categorised as, saturates, mono-unsaturates and
polyunsaturates on food labelling. The fatty acids are attached to the
glycerol molecule by ester bonds. So the ester content of the oil is, in
effect, the same as the fatty acid content (because you can't have one
without the other).

I have been told by a number of sources that 100% vegetable oil
qualifies for the same tax relief as biodiesel as it meets the same
chemical description (96.5% ester). Indeed, because fresh, refined
vegwetable oil has a very low FFA (free fatty acid) value, and therefore
a very high ester content, it is exactly what is meant by the
legislation and customs regulations when they cite a minimum of 96.5%
ester.

Sulphur "poisons" the nickel catalyst used in the vegetable oil refining
process. Consequently it is removed as far as chemically possible from
the raw material before the refining process and strictly limited in the
crude starting material.

0.0005% is another way of saying 5 parts per million. Our refiners have
assured us that refined oils do indeed have less than 5 p.p.m. sulphur
(or < 5mg/Kg, if you prefer).'

So in summing up.
1. Vegetable oil is a diesel quality fuel by definition as it is capable of
running diesel engines, either as a blend or as 100% fuel.
2. Vegetable oil is produced from biomass
3. Vegetable is made up of triglyceride esters, and therefore meets the
>96.5% w/v ester stipulation.
4. Vegetable oil contains less than the stipulated level of sulphur.

Can you please explain why or how you/the Commissioners insist that on its
own, straight vegetable oil will not normally be considered to meet the
biodiesel specification'.

Regards
Keith Painting

Jump in and tear it apart, and feel free to post any advisories that I might get back.

Also note I am not saying I won't pay what they want... but in accepting my 'set aside' they are surely accepting that the fuel is of the quality and as such now they are saying BUT WE DON'T LIKE THE FACT THAT YOUR CAR WILL AND OURS WON'T or maybe Ok you can but we don't want you to...
Let you know what I get back
Regards
Keith

[CaptainBeaky]

Looks good to me - let's see how they reply...

[the careful driver]

Jump in and tear it apart, and feel free to post any advisories that I might get back.

Keith

Excellent Keith.
Very nice and measured.

My main thing to add is that Vegoil is MORE green, and even less polluting than regular biodiesel. I didn't reference the original legislation, but I think that was the overall objective of the legislation (2002) - to reduce CO2 emmissions - which sometimes gets lost in the arguments over the detail (and so lawyers make money).
(Blimey, got a thing about lawyers today).

Even though they pay lawyers I think they are (legally) speaking rubbish. I personally think any court would support Vegoil as a Biofuel eligible for lower tax based on this evidence.

It sounds grand ("we have asked our lawyers"), but honestly, lawyers only pretend to know what they are talking about. They probably know nothing about biofuels, so they create grand empty phrases to cover themselves. Why would the government want to encourage Biodiesel in the first place - because it reduces CO2 emissions.

Peter

feel like I ranted a bit there, but a well-shaped letter, send it!


......................
Just found this for reference from the HMCE website, you might like to include. The site reference is very long and below.


Verbatim from the Budget advice : -


Definition of biodiesel
4. To qualify for the new rate of duty or for a repayment, biodiesel must be diesel quality liquid fuel produced from biomass or waste cooking oil:

the total ester content of which is not less than 96.5% by weight; and
the sulphur content of which does not exceed 0.005% by weight.
5. Diesel quality means capable of being used for the same purposes as heavy oil; and biomass means the vegetable and animal substances constituting the biodegradable fraction of products, wastes and residues from agriculture, forestry and related activities; or industrial and municipal waste.


http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsP...HMCE_CL_000741


Note 1

Biomass means the vegetable...... biodegradable fraction of products.... from agriculture.

A direct quote from above. (Ie vegetable oil)

Note 2

The notice says NOTHING about why the legislation was introduced. The legislation was not introduced because of the Biodiesel process, (C&E have simply MADE THIS UP !!!), it was introduced to encourage the use of environmental biofuels and reduce CO2 emissions.

So much for their lawyers.

Rant.

[Donk_UK]

Do you think they can worm out of it coz when trying to run SVO it gets to thick in the winter? not talking about 50 % 50% just pure VO. But my arguement is that I am heating it first so therefore once heated it is of Diesel qaulity. Saying that don't diesil freeze as well if it gets to cold? ok colder than we get here but thats irelevant.

Oh well posting mine now see what happens fingers crossed I'll get lower rate

[Philip]

Unleaded

I am now on my third tankful of veg oil mixed with 3-4 ltrs of unleaded petrol.
Car starts first time in morning, without clatter you get when using to high percentage of veg oil. Also runs well and quiet when on a run. Must be better than using a spirit to thin the veg oil, as i assume the petrol won't rot pipes.
I assume also that car would tell me if it didn't like it. Seemingly the Germans have been doing this for years, at least some of them.
Rgds Philip

[Chillitt]

is this as well as heating it, or instead of?

[Philip]

Still use the Fuel Cat heater, which uses heater hose water, so still cold on starting.
Philip

[KeithP]

I've been running at as low as around about 10% derv + veg oil, little bit of clatter on start up for the first mile or two then sweet as a nut, or whatever...
:-)

Sent the reply, still waiting.. they did send me a form to fill out though, my first.

erm... its entitled 'Excise Duty on Fuel Substitutes and Additives'..... HO930


Hello... where do I put my previously accepted 'biodiesel' at the lower rate here.

Can anyone give any guidence?

Also the amount I now submit that will obviously be at the higher rate... is that not of 'diesel quality'. Where should I put that ?

[Donk_UK]

Still waitin for my bits to be deliverd so I can run a dual tank system properly getting a bit impatient now The job lot cost about £80 better than the over priced kits off the net.

Come on Mister posty I got a free weekend to chop bits out of the surf !

Nobody had a reply from HM C&E yet concerning why veg isn't good enough for Diesel quality?

Only thing I can think of is the viscosity of it when its cold as they could argue the fact that it won't "run " any diesel engine.

Answers plz !

[Philip]

Most people i know start their LPG cars on petrol.
Whats the difference to starting on diesel??
Got my return for September. No change as yet 27.1p but expecting letter any day.
Rgds Philip

[Donk_UK]

Anyone know where on the internet the "transesterifcation" kits can be found ?I've been scratching my head for hours now.

[Philip]

Try them.

http://www.greenfuels.co.uk/small.htm

Would have thought that if you found two or three people to share this with, it would work out OK.
Philip

[FlySurfer - Edy.]

Very interested to hear your progress with mixing l phillip - seems good to me. Let us know how things transpire over the cold months....