Dual Tanks

[POPEYE]

Nothing better to do so i'm going to write this mod up as i go, might be of help to someone, thought of fitting a twin tank system a while back and have been reading up on it with a lot more reading to do, the rough drawing below is what i had in mind but as i dont seem to plan bugger all properly i expect there'll be some changes as i go along, the idea is to take a hot water supply (probably from the heater) and feed it to an electric pump (already fitted and wired), from there to a heat exchanger and on to the "veg oil" tank running through a coil to help heat the oil in there, the return will then pass through a radiator and back to the heater circuit? the reason for the rad is to help with the trucks high running temps (around 90c+) this may help a bit along with changeing the viscious fan for electric at a later date.



I did'nt want to fit the veg tank in the load space for obvious reasions so the only other place was where the spare wheel used to be, i'd already removed the wheel cradles and winch stuff so it was nice and clear, had a quick measure up and started looking on ebay, if you "well off" you can have a tailor made tank knocked up but as i intend doing this as cheap as possible it's going to be a second hand one for me, found the very item and got it for £35 (plus £35 in diesel go get it, but we wont mention that) it's a land rover 90/110 80 lt defender (andy informs me) tank and once the waxoil had been washed off it was like new, came with a brand new sender unit too, first pics are a test fit on a jack and it fitted up there very nicely, it dose'nt hang too low, could have got away with a wider tank but 80lt is enough range for me i think,


First step was to make some form of fixeing to hold it, again andy informed me that the holes back and front in the seam are not man enough to support a full tank so straps were needed, i did however use the two holes at the back to locate the tank on, this is to stop the thing moveing about in it's straps and does not support it, i drilled the tow bar cross member and fitted some theaded rod with rubber bump stops, large flat washers and nyloc nuts,
with the tank located on these i could then jack it up into position and see what was what, decieded to use two 30mm X 6mm flat bar bolted to the chassi Xmember,this should support the tank OK, i could then make the straps,
i used some 30mm X 3mm flat bar (from B&Q) bent to shape and drilled, threaded rod is used to join the lot together, the pic shows them without the tank in place,

But before i fit it it'll need some work to take the coil and a temp sender,
also i need to fit the radiator while i can still get in there,

[POPEYE]

The radiator!!! could have done with a smaller one but as i paid good money for this one (£14) i'm bl00dy useing it, after some fiddleing about i managed to get it into the only space it'll fit in, between the chassi and floor above the rear suspension, there's even enough room for a fan on top, made some (4) brackets and bump stops so its nicely "insulated" from viabration,drilled and tapped the Xmembers as in the pics, a quick dab of hammerite so it "fits" in with the rest and thats in place, it sits at an angle on those X members and may be a bit "out of the air flow" but the fan should help and i'll have a go at some sort of scoop a bit later, and a heat shield for the exhaust before anyone points that out, also stuck a drain cock in the lower end where a temp sensor used to be i think.

[POPEYE]

Prepping the tank!! first i had to cut a hole in it big enough to get my bunch of bananas hands in, luckily i have a 5" holesaw and that just fitted nicely into the recess on top, cut a circular plate, file round to remove the burrs, drill and fit with self tapper and a gasket of some sort and thats sorted, leagle or not,
Working in there aint as easy as i thought as there are baffels inside to stop the fuel sloshing about and i did not want to mess with them, once i'd worked out where the coil was going to go i drilled the tank to take the unions which were the tails from two "pompy" type ball valves, i machined out the valve end on a small lathe to take 15mm copper tube, some brass back nuts and poly washers and that should give a good seal, the first atempt at a coils was ok but on checking it (by blowing through it) i found it hard and would guess water would have the same problem, so i'm going to re do it in 15mm,
aslo fitted a port for the temp sender, i intend to fit several temp gauges so i can monitor the oil on its way to the engine, i understand i need it to be around 50c at the pump, i'm guessing the heat my engine gives out will take it higher than that, (might even be able to cook french fries while driveing)
Next step is make another heater coil, fit the tank and find a place for the heat exchanger

[stormforce]

i was thinking about the same sort of thing that your doing Ian.I was thinking of a way to heat the oil tank before the engine is running,along the lines of something a bit like an immersion heater and thermostat connected to a third battery just to pre heat the tank and then it can switch over to the heater pipes to carry on warming the lines

[POPEYE]

This guys a good read mate

http://www.bjblaster.com/
http://www.fattywagons.com/fwproducts.htm
This one has the heater tape and emersion heater,

My old wagon's in the garage every night Rich so it's not so much of a problem, dare'nt leave it out round here, the swirl tank would do you i reccon
some heater tape around the injector lines? pity its from america, thats why i asked for pic/write up from guys on here but no bugger reply'd the return from the pump is around 50c, plug that into the swirl tank and it'll give you enough warm oil to allow time for the engine to warm it up.

[POPEYE]

OK new exchanger "coil" made and fitted, i can blow through this one a lot better so the flow should be ok, tank ready to go on,
last pic is the heat exchanger i going to use, (from a combi boiler) worked alright in that so i cant see any reason it wont work on the truck, just messing about with fittings, this has three "hot water ports" and two heated (oil) ports, just fix a drain cock on the third, i'm fitting "ballofix" isolators all roung so if i have to remove it for any reason i wont loose all the coolant/fuel
also i need to fit a temp sender port in the fuel line forward of the exchanger,

[POPEYE]

Thought i'd add this, trev posted it in anwser to a qusetion i put on the general forum, so might have to think again about useing copper in this system,


I have a concern Ian, I saw this on journeytoforever.org



'Copper and SVO: "I'm not so worried about the copper but what the copper does to the fuel. Did you ever check what happened to your fuel properties like oxidation stability and acid value? A lot of research has been done in Germany on VO (and biodiesel) fuel properties, and who I consider as the leading experts clearly warn against using copper in connection with VO because of the catalytic effect it has on the VO. The laboratory ASG Analytik-Service (http://www.asg-analytik.de), who were involved in the research leading to the "Rape Seed Oil Fuel Standard", says that just a few PPM of copper in VO will change the oxidation stability... [In SVO systems] with a catalytic metal, I think you have the best conditions and environment for decomposition of the VO, and the effects it has on the fuel properties again have an impact on the engine performance, engine conditions (lifetime) and emissions composition." -- Niels Ansø, Folkecenter, Denmark'
__________________

[POPEYE]

With the above in mind and unable to find/ afford an alternative way of makeing a coil i called to the electro platers near me and the guy nickel plated the copper one for a fiver, so that problems sorted, he also said that the plate coats the inside of the pipe as well so that might come in handy regarding the heat exchanger and glow plug heater (if i'm useing one) pics of it on and back in again, next fit the tank
>edit< Fitted!!
next remove the pump from the front and fit it at the back, that way it'll be positioned about halfway in the run, and wont have to strain shoveing or sucking water the whole pipe run,
>edit<
Most of the return fitted today, (the easy bit) i've run about 2mt of the return in 22mm copper which i'll keep unlagged, this is reduced down to 15mm at each end to allow hose to be fitted, hopefully the returning water will loose a bit more heat as it'll travel more slowly throught this part, i've used copper reducers to get me onto the rad and from it, (from the fuel tank coil)
>edit<
bit more achieved today, got the water pump fitted and piped up to where the main heat exchanger's going to live, i lagged this run and cable tie'd it along the top of the chassi, also had to rethink the siteing of the fuel filter,
ended up bolting the bracket to the cross member, got to get a filter and make a coil to go round it, the heat exchanger looks more like a trumpet but it's got a good flow rate and have to get it nickle plated yet, till then i'm stuck,
shoud add here that i made this copper exchanger in place of the old central heating one as apart from being bulky no matter how much i cleaned it out i was still getting scale out so dumped it

[POPEYE]

Exchanger nickel plated and fitted and pipes up (hot water) also fitted some of the fuel line which i also lagged,
i used some of the 8mm copper coil i did'nt use in the tank to fit round the fuel filter, as it's a bit restrctive flow wise i put a 10mm bypass in the run, this should allow a decent flow and get enough round the filter to at least stop it looseing heat it's picked up on it's way from the tank, i'll have to lag all this as well, changeing the filter will be quite easy, undo one nut and the coil can be lowered, i've kept the filter the same as the surfs for ease of getting replacement's plus i'll try to wire up the "water in filter" warning light on the dash, next i need to make a swirl tank and get a fuel pump (electric),
If anyone's actually reading this cr@p and has an opinion as to where the pump would be best sited i'd like to hear it, ie:- before or after the exchanger.

[POPEYE]

Well! looks like my assumption was right, no one's reading this cr@p still i'm enjoying meself so WTF

Have'nt done much to it for a couple of weeks but bolted on the changover valve today, it's a POLLOK 6 port and i got it from the US, half the price (inc shipping) that they go for here (not inc post) anyway good or bad i'll give it a try, at the moment there are only two wires to worry about, these go (via relays ,i think) to the switch and change the valve position, i can tee a feed off the svo side of it should i fit a fuel pump and swirl tank later, the other three wires are for the two tanks senders and allow the stock fuel gauge to register levels in whichever tank is selected, but i dont want to use this facility as i've fitted and landy fuel gauge for the svo,
Also rearranged some stuff in the roof console so i could fit the fuel gauge, two svo temp gauges and (later) a vac gauge (for the pump) refitted the cd exchanger on the other side, and re worked the switches adding an led for the rear cooling fan, warning leds for the svo filter and "that" wobbly pully thingy, BTW these were courtest of MattF, i did'nt know they were "blinking" leds till i wired em up, nice one, switch for the pollok valve is up there to with of course leds to show which tank i'm on.
>edit< made this sensor "tee" from round brass stock and barbed tails as i cound'nt find anything suitable to buy (unless ya pay a fortune) added an earth tab too in case the screws fail to make contact, this if for the veg oil temp, (post exchanger temp).

[marky]

Wheres the WARP CORE gonna go now
You'll be putting a BED & DRINKS CABINET in next!

[The Lang-Shankit Scunner]

Hats off to popeye for taking veg conversions to a whole new level! I must resign as the twin tank fitting expert , and hand over to the master.

That is incredibly complex and effective Ian, there arent any problems or missed aspects of it. If it werent for designs close to and derivatives of it, you would be able patent that.

Good work

Carl

[Robmatthews]

Old thread revival!

Popeye did you get all this working in the end?
Couple of questions 1-this seams a very complicated setup,why do you need the extra rad,
2-is there also a need for the extra wvo fuel pump?as wont the standard pump continue to pull the wvo fuel through?
3-what electric waterpump do you recomend?
4-back to the fuel pumpfor the wvo, would it be ok to just use an intank pump?

This is open to anyone to answer to
cheers rob

[Webbo]

Well done Ian looks good to me, and you take the time out to detail all your hard work in pictures and drawings. Like I've said before you have an idea of how your gunna do things and just get on with it.

[POPEYE]

Well done Ian looks good to me, and you take the time out to detail all your hard work in pictures and drawings. Like I've said before you have an idea of how your gunna do things and just get on with it.

Thanks Dave, sorry for the late reply, only just saw this,