I fear the worse!

[ronsarrox]

After doing some research, I decided that I was going to run my Surf on Bio-diesel.

I have had the truck 3 months now, and have been running 100% bio for approx 10 weeks. (I did increased the ratio of bio/derv over a few weeks to eventually end up 100%)

Now my engine is dead.

It started to run rough, very lumpy idle, hot or cold, and would cut out. Once up and running, it would be ok, but when slowing down or stopping at a junction etc, it would struggle to idle and cut out.

It got the point where fully depressing the throttle pedal wouldn't do anything, but strangely, in Neutral or Park, it would rev up.

So I changed the fuel filter at work, as it wouldn't start at all (2nd change in 3 months), and it was still lumpy and running rough, but i managed to get it home.

I left it over night after returning home from work, and went to it the next morning, it took forever to start, I thought maybe I hadn't bled and primed the fuel system properly, once I got it started ,I ran it at approx 3000 rpm for a good half hour (which really pleased my neighbours) and it was still the same, lumpy and mega rough on idle, cutting out, and smoking really bad (made me hungry as it smelt like a chippy lol).

I left it for a bit, and then it wouldnt start at all.

I plan to completely drain the fuel system, do another filter change, and refill with only derv, I will check the strainer in the fuel tank ( to do this Im going to "extend" the access point under the back seat with my friend Mr Angle Grinder rather tham drop the tank), im hoping that a drop of fresh derv will make all the difference, but i do fear the worse, that the bio has knackerd my IP, and its going to be costly trip to the main dealer to get it fixed.

I thought it best to get some fresh derv into the system before I get the RAC bloke out , I know as soon as I mention "Bio" he will say this is the problem, without even opening the bonnet, I plan to use the RAC to get it low loaded to the garage, but they cant do that until there "Mechanic" has been out to make his assessment.

The lift pump seems fine, as this is going hard once primed.

Any ideas or help will be greatly appreciated.

Its a 1996 3.0 3rd Gen

[Surfboy]

See this thread http://www.hiluxsurf.co.uk/showthread.php?t=78386

Clean the pump, get a FPHE before your filter, clear your lines and make sure your fuel cap vents to avoid vacuums.

Did you post on the Vegoildiesel site as well?

[ronsarrox]

See this thread http://www.hiluxsurf.co.uk/showthread.php?t=78386

Clean the pump, get a FPHE before your filter, clear your lines and make sure your fuel cap vents to avoid vacuums.

Did you post on the Vegoildiesel site as well?

Yes mate, ive posted on the veggy forum, im guessing you are Jampot?!

Thanks for your help.

[ronsarrox]

Heres a quick update, I managed to get it started today after charging the batteries and jumping of my mums beloved rover 25!

It took a while to start, bit lumpy at first, but then it soon cleared, and would rev up nice and smooth, and idle perfect. I thought the idle speed was a little low, so ive adjusted the screw.

I had it running for over an hour, this was a mixture of revving and idling, and also to get some charge in the batteries.

As soon as i put it into gear, D or R, the revs would die almost to the point of cutting out, the throttle would be unresponsive, it would cough and splutter, and then finally cut out.

Then it would take a while again to get started, and still the throttle remained unresponsive, after about 30 seconds of idling, it would then rev up, and idle ok, but the moment its put into gear, the same happens.

any ideas?

[Wolfracer]

Sounds more like an ecu issue to me. What 'changes' when you put it in drive? If it will tick over and rev cleanly in park, then the problem lies within the gear selection brain and functioning surely? Thats as much as I know. and that aint a great deal.

[Surfboy]

The symptoms I had were when driving, having a loss of power and engine not being able to deliver enough fuel. As Wolfracer says, it may not be the same problem, but you have the info if you need it

[BUSHWHACKER]

Any fault codes logged in the ECU?
This should be the first thing to check.

Does it rev past 3000rpm in P/N?


To check if it's ECT part of the ECU, unplug the solenoids multi-plug from the passenger side of the transmission and see if the engine still bogs down when you select D.

If it doesn't, then it's a transmission (lock-up solenoid) or ECU problem.

[ronsarrox]

Sounds more like an ecu issue to me. What 'changes' when you put it in drive? If it will tick over and rev cleanly in park, then the problem lies within the gear selection brain and functioning surely? Thats as much as I know. and that aint a great deal.

It ticks over ok in Park, as soon as either D or R is selected the revs die down and it becomes unresponsive. There was the odd occasion when it was doing what it should do, but it is behaving badly more than good.

The symptoms I had were when driving, having a loss of power and engine not being able to deliver enough fuel. As Wolfracer says, it may not be the same problem, but you have the info if you need it

Im still going to check the gauze in the IP tomorrow, im also going to attempt to check the strainer in the tank.

Any fault codes logged in the ECU?
This should be the first thing to check.

Does it rev past 3000rpm in P/N?


To check if it's ECT part of the ECU, unplug the solenoids multi-plug from the passenger side of the transmission and see if the engine still bogs down when you select D.

If it doesn't, then it's a transmission (lock-up solenoid) or ECU problem.

Yes Vince, it revs way past 3000 rpm when in N or P, as I mentioned earlier, once its cut out, it takes a while for it to fire up, and wont do anything for the first 30 seconds or so, but then everything behaves it self.

Tomorows jobs are

remove and clean out gauze beneath spill off valve
attempt to gain access to the fuel strainer with the assistance of my new Mr Angle Grinder, to make the hole under the rear seats bigger.
And do what you have suggested, remove the plug on the N/S of the Autobox.

I also am going to fit one of those cheap plastic bowl type in-line filters before the main filter.

Thanks for your help so far guys.

[Surfboy]

attempt to gain access to the fuel strainer with the assistance of my new Mr Angle Grinder, to make the hole under the rear seats bigger.

I tried that but the solid flow and return pipework means you can't lift the assembly up and out far enough to get access to the tank strainer. I did just about see mine, using a torch, and it only had a few bits of crap on it... not too much.

I think you need to drop the tank to get proper access. I don't think you need to though. Your problems are at t'other end.

[BUSHWHACKER]

Yes Vince, it revs way past 3000 rpm when in N or P, as I mentioned earlier, once its cut out, it takes a while for it to fire up, and wont do anything for the first 30 seconds or so, but then everything behaves it self.

Tomorows jobs are

remove and clean out gauze beneath spill off valve
attempt to gain access to the fuel strainer with the assistance of my new Mr Angle Grinder, to make the hole under the rear seats bigger.
And do what you have suggested, remove the plug on the N/S of the Autobox.

I also am going to fit one of those cheap plastic bowl type in-line filters before the main filter.

Thanks for your help so far guys.

And carry out a diagnostics check?

If the engine can rev easily past 3000rpm, then the pump is working OK.
It's most likely a sensor/ECU issue.


First thing to do is the diagnostics test followed by the unplugging of the solenoid control plug on the transmission.

[ronsarrox]

Is there a way to retrieve the fault codes without a plug in code reader?

Its not got the engine management light on, would there still be codes even without the light on?

I suppose buying one would be a handy a thing to have for future use, is there any particular model of code reader which works better than others? Ive not got the funds to buy a snap on one!

[ronsarrox]

UPDATE...

drained the fuel tank and replenished with fresh derv, to illiminate any fuel related troubles, I took on board what you said Vince, and I found another thread on how to retrieve fault codes, ive done this and...

The Engine management light flashes repeatdly, im guessing this means no codes and all is well on the engine managment side.

The OD light is flashing, and I have the following

63
64

Do you know what these codes refer to?

I tried un plugging the connectors on the side of the box, Im not too sure which one is which so I undid all of them, and the problem was still there.

Im now packing away and calling it quits for the day as Im struggling with things now, and I have reached the limit of my knowledge.

Thanks again for your help so far.

[BUSHWHACKER]

It's the large multi-plug on the passenger side of the transmission that controls the solenoids.

Unplugging all of them won't help with the elimination process, you need the neutral start switch multi-plug connected (the large light grey plug, driver's side) otherwise the ECU won't know whats going on.

Code 64 is a lock-up solenoid fault, 63 is probably another solenoid fault.
These codes would explain why the engine bogs down and dies when you select reverse or forward gears.

As the auto transmissions hardly ever go wrong, my diagnosis would be your ECU is stuffed.
Can you borrow one from another 3.0 owner near you?

The ECU lays flat and is up behind the glovebox by the way, so you'll need to remove the glovebox section of the dash to get at the ECU.

[ronsarrox]

It's the large multi-plug on the passenger side of the transmission that controls the solenoids.

Unplugging all of them won't help with the elimination process, you need the neutral start switch multi-plug connected (the large light grey plug, driver's side) otherwise the ECU won't know what's going on.

Code 64 is a lock-up solenoid fault, 63 is probably another solenoid fault.
These codes would explain why the engine bogs down and dies when you select reverse or forward gears.

As the auto transmissions hardly ever go wrong, my diagnosis would be your ECU is stuffed.
Can you borrow one from another 3.0 owner near you?

The ECU lays flat and is up behind the glove-box by the way, so you'll need to remove the glove-box section of the dash to get at the ECU.

Sorry mate I didn't explain fully, I only unplugged the ones on the passenger side of the box.

There is a single black plug going on to some sort of switch which is bolted to the gear box, very close the selector arm, and pointing downwards there is another plug , I'm guessing this is the vehicle speed sensor, I didn't touch this one.

Then mounted on a fixing bracket there are two plugs, one is grey in colour, cant remember what the colour of the other one is.

Then going to the rear of the box near the diff, there is a series of plugs, but im guessing these are for the 4x4 controls, so I didn't touch these either.

Is there anyway you could get me a picture of the exact plug I need to disconnect?

As for the ECU, I don't know anyone around here who's got a 3.0, so borrowing one is a no go.

Im prepared to buy one from a breaker, if it doesn't work, then hay ho, I shall either re sell it or hang on to it for future use.

Edit...

Would an ECU from a 2nd gen fit?

Im not with the truck now, its at my mums, but im back with it on Wednesday.

Just one more question, do you think that the trans ECU fault would cause the engine to be difficult to start?

[ronsarrox]

UPDATE

Upon receiving the ECU from Vince I fitted it straight away hoping that all my troubles we be eradicated, how wrong I was!

It did clear the fault codes, which did clear the fault codes, how ever the non starting issue still remained.

In the end I called out the RAC, but this was only to utilise their "Free Flat Bed Recovery"! The bloke did give the truck a squirt of "Easy Start" (typical lol) and it did fire up, and rev up lovely, but wouldn't idle, how ever it did tick over with the IDLE UP button turned on.

But again, as soon as a gear was selected it died, and then wouldn't start without another squirt of Easy Start.

This was over 3 weeks ago.

So in the end I decided to bite the bullet and send it to Farmer and Carlisle Toyota , the main dealer in Leicester.

There she sat for over a week untouched, which annoyed the hell out of me. In the end I spoke to the works controller who said and I quote...

"To be honest, we don't know where to start looking"

What more, he also said that ECU's are non transferable, as they are programmed to the vehicle and the keys will need reprogramming to the ECU as the immobiliser will not deactivate

Which filled me absolute confindence!!!!!! In the end I said forget it, and I have since got the truck back.

Could the stop solenoid be to blame? One thing I have noticed is that when it does start, which is about 1 in 20 times of trying, the throttle is unresponsive and when I open the throttle by hand, the cable going to the control box becomes slack, so its as if either the TPS is not working, or something is wrong with the motor inside the control box.

Im tempted to replace the Stop solenoid (Which I think sits in the lift pump assembly), and try and get hold of a second hand throttle control box and TPS.

Please guys, Im getting desperate now, surely someone can shed some light on the subject.

I want my truck back on the road, if I haven't sorted it out by mid May, Im going to cut my losses and sell it for parts.