Starting problems

[Nicknoo]

Hi all

I need some help as usual!! My 2.4 TD surf decided not to start this morning I have tried jump starting but makes no difference it just click once. I have checked all earthing and all looks ok. When connecting a meter the battery voltage drops down to about 10v when trying to start so again this looks ok. So I think I am left with a starter motor problem, what do you think? is my observation skills ok. If so I need a bit of advice on how to get the starter motor out I have read it is a nightmare!! Do I need to remove the wheel I have read that you do on the 3.0 but not sure on the 2.4, what other bits do I need to remove to get it out?

Once out shall I replace the whole thing from rough trax or try cleaning the contacts or replacing the contacts?

Anyway thanks for your help I have been cheered up no end by reading all the posts about bruised and battered hands trying to get this out LOL

Nick

[marky]

There are 2 LONG bolts that hold the Starter motor in place i think.
Also check if there is any water in your Radiator(hydraulic lock)

[Koi]

would try to bump start it to see if it starts at all, but by description of single click when trying by key could well be starter related

[The Lang-Shankit Scunner]

What i did with a car i had with this problem is as koi said bump it, but with mine evry 2-3 weeks i would have to rock it back and forth in second gear with clutch up, bouncing off the gear box as it where, and that would free it.

[cataclysm]

I had this problem with mine.

The solenoid that pushes the starter gear into engagement is also the final relay for the starter motor. There's a lot of juice going through, and it does erode away. Thanks to good ol' physics, one side will go before the other -- there is a bit of spring but it has a limited range.

You can get replacement contacts or rebuild them with solder (assuming there's enough copper left for strength). I went the solder route (needed to get to work).

I took my starter out with minimum removals: just moved the fuel & air filters.
The hardest part is the bolt between the back of the engine and the bulkhead... I hope you have some of those fancy ratchet spanners (I don't and it took ages to work the bolt free). I took it out through the top.
Took about 2 hours to get out (including figuring out how to) and about 30 minutes to get back in.

You could jump the motor started with a jumper cable; there's a rubber cap over the two contacts (in and out of solenoid relay). You could connect to the bottom one, get someone to turn the key; then connect the cable to battery positive. It's gonna be a hot sparky job if you do it, so no flammable items nearby and have a extinguisher ready.

[Nicknoo]

I am in the middle of doing it now!!! I have removed one of the 18mm bolts and one of the support bolts but i am having a bit of a problem with the bolt that is in between the back of the engine and the bulkhead, i can't even find it. how do i access it from the top or the bottom?

nick

[cataclysm]

I went in over the top, just near the EGR pipe, under the cab heater water pipes. I can't remember the bolt size, but both are the same. Swing a ring-spanner down there and feel around. You can't really find it from underneath.

I've got skinny hands and squeezed down in there, but it was still tricky. If you want to see it, lean right over the engine with a torch and look straight down.

Best of luck!

Edit:
When you get it out, you only need to remove the cap of the solenoid... not the motor cap! (The motor is the larger round case)
Pull the plunger out.. it has a spring and a long thing pin.
Then remove the bolts (on the out casing) for the two L shaped contacts.
If you've going to try soldering, make sure you've got plenty of flux on the contact surface, but not on the underside. I just put mine on the smallest ring of the gas stove and poked it with electrical solder until it melted in. Fill it up as much as you can.
Oh, and don't quench solder joints. Leave it on the (turned off) stove top to cool as slowly as possible.

The old girl has started fine every morning for two months since.

[cataclysm]

Any luck with this?

[Nicknoo]

Hi Everyone

Thanks for the great advice, 3 days later and I finally got it going (I was not out there the whole 3 days honest lol). I got what I deserved for laughing at all the poor souls who posted saying they had cuts and bruises after attempting this when I s$$$$ped my hand for the 100th time I thought I must have been paid back by now.

Anyway enough with the how bad I am at this. I stripped the starter motor out re soldered the contacts as cataclysm suggested and cleaned everything up and put it back. On the first turn of the key it attempted to turn over then stopped, after this it would not do anything, it turned out to be the 40amp fuse under the bonnet had blown I replaced it with the 30 amp from what I think is the diesel pump fuse and it blew straight away. I then connected a positive from the battery straight to the starter motor (very worried I would blow myself up) and the car tried to start and was turning over fine, obviously did not start as I had blown the diesel pump fuse doh. I re-soldered the fuses and replaced and it started fine. Has anyone got any idea why this happened can the starter motor get stuck or not engage right and needs a bit of a kick to start??

And on the bright side when I was under the car I noticed what I think is the lower ball joints worn on both sides at the front so looks like this is my next job, I will have to have a good read of the forum first

Thanks again for all your help

Ps I have told the wife never to moan about child birth again because I now no what it is like to get something the size of a football out of a hole the size of a golf ball!!!

[cataclysm]

Sorry to hear about the problems -- if you weren't across the other side of the country I'd offer to help!

Hmm... electrical problems are always the worst! Lots of blowing fuses points to a knackered regulator, although if it only happens once, could be a momentary short circuit somewhere (I've had a fuse blow on an older car when insects got into a circuit board!).
Could have been something conductive in the starter plunger that fed motor current into the solenoid... that would probably blow anything.

My symapathies for the bruises... that back bolt's a swine!

[Nicknoo]

Just an update on this, it has started first time every time since the fuse blew so looks like the starter motor was probably just stuck after the re fit, Can this happen?? Anyway thanks for all the help.

Nick

[cataclysm]

Yup, the whole reason there's a plunger-gear in the starter is because running the motor from the engine results is various bad stuff.

Usually that's wear, noise and power loss; but as it's a permanent magnet DC motor, running it at speed will result in fairly significant power generation -- and the starter doesn't have a voltage regulator like the alternator does!

Do you usually rev the engine once it starts up?

[Nicknoo]

Hi cataclysm no I usually turn the key and it starts ok. It’s been ok for a week or so now so all is looking good just going to keep my fingers crossed. Do you think the solder will wear out quicker than the copper?

[cataclysm]

Hi cataclysm no I usually turn the key and it starts ok. It’s been ok for a week or so now so all is looking good just going to keep my fingers crossed. Do you think the solder will wear out quicker than the copper?

I doubt it. Copper erodes quite quickly under arcing conditions -- I'd guess the solder would be a little slower, depending on formulation and how well anealed the solder. I've done a fair bit of stop-starting since I soldered mine up (using multi-core lead electrical solder). Probably about 4-6 starts a day, for about 4 months now.

Glad to hear the fuses are okay. Was probably a momentary short on the first turn-over.