Well done Alex

[flounderbout]

But we had Blair/brown/balls...total cocks. We now have cameron...posh cock, and the strangeness that is Hague...an odd cock.
Could be worse though. Could be worse though. Could be Nick clegg. Now he's a "all the big boys are laughing at

You forgot Thatcher - strap-on cock...

[Rustinho]

Rustinho I would add in response to both your posts the following quote.

"A country is more than a balance sheet, a nation more than a cash account, a people more than a bank statement. There are wealthy nations and there are poor nations and each of them goes about its business and its international interactions seeking its best advantage. Most of them run annual deficits and carry large debts. Seldom does any nation decide that its wealth or its poverty requires it to be subsumed by another and seldom does any nation decide that its wealth or its poverty requires it to secede from such a union; nations are more than the sum of their sovereign funds, you cannot place the value of a community in a set of accounts any more than you can weigh identity or measure the dimensions of belonging. "

And on a more emotional level, although I do try and stay away from this side of the debate.

Scotland; a nation with our own distinctive culture and civilization, language and literature, art and architecture, names and nomenclature, sense of values and proportion, legal laws and moral codes, customs, history and traditions, aptitudes and ambitions, in short, we have our own distinctive outlook on life and of life. By all canons of law we are a nation.

Absolutely spot on. If it were me living north of the border I really don't have a clue which side of the fence I would be on regarding independence.

[Surfer Ross]

I do argue that financially Scotland would be in a better position.

And you'd be absolutely correct Brian!!!

If the Westminster governments of the 60s and 70s had been more interested in the future of the United Kingdom instead of their own short-term personal gain (read backhanders and benefits in kind), the United Kingdom would have a seat on OPEC or be equally wealthy outside of that cartel and would have one of the highest GDPs on the planet.

Independence for Scotland, meaning complete and utter Independence, the demise of the UK, is not something I can ever see happening. In the hypothetical eventuality that it did, Scotland would be the wealthiest country in North West Europe, by a long way.

[Sancho]

In the hypothetical eventuality that it did, Scotland would be the wealthiest country in North West Europe, by a long way.

Are you sure? I agree it would be a wealthy country, but North West Europe is some pretty high-rolling company. What makes you so sure?

[John h]

on cost base and output per capita, yes Scotland's GDP would easily beat the north European big boys, The guys that wrote Freakanomics did an economic assessment of all euro economies and quoted certain 'independants' such as Wales and Scotland etc, Scotland came top except surprisingly on sustainability ?

[flounderbout]

As far as I can see the "pros" say that Scotland will survive independence financially by radically increasing the Scottish economy (no-one suggests North Sea Oil alone is enough - those revenues would reduce the current level from abotu £12bn pa to £6bn pa even on the pros' figures). It is not entirely clear how this increase in growth would be achieved - the three main suggestions are defence spending, the ability to borrow independently, and the ability to disjoin Scottish and UK tax rates to encourage investment. But the last is already an option and Scotland has not used it, and it is hard to see the first two making a huge impact.
The "cons" meanwhile point out that the net flow of cash into Scotland from the UK is currently positive, and that the prospect of sufficient economic growth post independence is wholly speculative.
But the upshot is that nobody seems able to make any sort of accurate prediction of what the economic outlook would be, meaning that independence would be a pretty big punt in the dark. Human nature suggests that what people believe about the financial outlook will be tailored to what they would prefer the outcome to be on an emotional level.

[flounderbout]

on cost base and output per capita, yes Scotland's GDP would easily beat the north European big boys, The guys that wrote Freakanomics did an economic assessment of all euro economies and quoted certain 'independants' such as Wales and Scotland etc, Scotland came top except surprisingly on sustainability ?

Where was that John? Had a look but can't find. Levitt and Dubner are usually worth a good read...

[John h]

I'm looking for it ! it was part of the journal of political economy, it was indexed and Continent specific, threw up some amazing stuff like Nepal, Luxembourg and economy of scale etc i bought SuperFreakonomics but felt a little let down with the repetition anyway will continue search for economic model stuff so you can really bore yourself...I'm just a saddo

[flounderbout]

I'm looking for it ! it was part of the journal of political economy, it was indexed and Continent specific, threw up some amazing stuff like Nepal, Luxembourg and economy of scale etc i bought SuperFreakonomics but felt a little let down with the repetition anyway will continue search for economic model stuff so you can really bore yourself...I'm just a saddo

Thanks John. I quite enjoyed Superfreakonomics. Particularly the drunk walking and climate change sections! Bizarre how they have been labelled climate change deniers since SF, when they are the first people to stand up and say that something positive needs to be done rather than just decreasing the negative which is probably impossible.

Would like to read that paper though. I suspect that Scottish independence might actually be one of the most significant issues for many many years for all sorts of reasons - it would be nice to know a bit more about the economic issues then the usual cockeyed garbage spouted by the extremists on one side or the other.

I'd also love to read their take on Nepal. I did some gravity fed water supply system surveying for the Gurkha Welfare Scheme years ago in a few villages in the West near Annapurna, and it was a real education...