Disgraceful

[tristanjay]

Just on the original topic, I go mine exploring with a local mine/cave rescue group and the thought that she lay there awake (proving there to be no bad air) for 6 hours because of health and safety regs blows my mind. H&S laws are so easy to ignore, its their only saving grace

[fatfires]

So what is the point in having fire fighters anymore???

they arent allowed to enter burning buildings half the time.

they arent allowed to be lowered down a mine shaft to save a woman from death?!

and they strike when they dont like their pay or working conditions!.. I have no sympathy for them as they signed up to do the job, knew the risks involved and i get annoyed because i had to partake in covering the firefighters while i was in the army, when they went on strike!

as for health and safety......

If as your avatar sugests you live in Devon....you realy should know better as you obviously dont I will educate you;
Of 58 fire stations in Devon, 11 that is the whole time stations, went on some sort of strike, some of those gave emergency cover. Fire cover was given by the retained fire fighters and yes I can proudly say I was one of them. The retained firefighters unionstates as rule 1. we rcognise that fire does not cease therefore this union does not strike (or words to that effect)
In most situations it is up to the individual to use (fancy phrase) dimamic risk assessment in deciding whether to carry out an action or not, the vast majority of firefighters would and do go the extra mile, take the informed risk and get away with it, however it is the safety culture and good working practices that mean we have very few (thank god) fire crew fatallities, unlike the USA where with their gung ho attitude and lack of safety proceedures lead to avarage arround 300 fire fighter deaths a year. We have one of the best fire services in the world and you should be proud of that as we are.
The only time I have been hampered in carrying out my duty was by a copper who did not have a clue - he was forceably moved aside by the crew and we did our job....successfully
I have personally witnessed fire crews coming off a picket line and comming in to duty uncalled when they knew a job might have needed them.
I find your critisism unfounded, unwanted, unfair and unjust and whilst I hope you never need assistance perhaps the only way to change your mind will one day happen when the brown stuff has hit the fan and those firefighters, ambulance and lifeboat personnel get you out of it
Perhaps it would be wise to wait untill the full facts are known before gobbing off! and also how much active, effective fire fighting was done by the undertrained non experianced members of the armed forces attending in outdated fire appliances....believe me I do know I had to try to train some of them, they were a shambles but never had a chance because experience cannot be learnt.
Rant over

[slobodan]

Perhaps it would be wise to wait untill the full facts are known

True, it said she died of a heart attack when she reached the surface.
She might not have been in imminent danger while she was down the hole.

[Apache]

They stood and watched for six hours?!

F##k that i'm going in. SACK ME.

Exactly.

It's down to the individual and their assessment of the situation at the end of the day.

Personally, if I thought I could get in and out with her alive with 'reasonable risk' then I would. However, H&S seems to preclude ANY risk at all.

I'm sorry, life is risky, and when you sign up to be a copper / fireman / paramedic / squaddie you accept 'reasonable risk' as part of that job (and I'm sure they do) but these bleedin pen pushing paper shufflers who are there 'for our safety' really boil my #### (great comment!) too! Go do your paperwork in your reflection free / papercut safe office and get the f*ck out of my face!

[che2318]

If as your avatar sugests you live in Devon....you realy should know better as you obviously dont I will educate you;
Of 58 fire stations in Devon, 11 that is the whole time stations, went on some sort of strike, some of those gave emergency cover. Fire cover was given by the retained fire fighters and yes I can proudly say I was one of them. The retained firefighters unionstates as rule 1. we rcognise that fire does not cease therefore this union does not strike (or words to that effect)
In most situations it is up to the individual to use (fancy phrase) dimamic risk assessment in deciding whether to carry out an action or not, the vast majority of firefighters would and do go the extra mile, take the informed risk and get away with it, however it is the safety culture and good working practices that mean we have very few (thank god) fire crew fatallities, unlike the USA where with their gung ho attitude and lack of safety proceedures lead to avarage arround 300 fire fighter deaths a year. We have one of the best fire services in the world and you should be proud of that as we are.
The only time I have been hampered in carrying out my duty was by a copper who did not have a clue - he was forceably moved aside by the crew and we did our job....successfully
I have personally witnessed fire crews coming off a picket line and comming in to duty uncalled when they knew a job might have needed them.
I find your critisism unfounded, unwanted, unfair and unjust and whilst I hope you never need assistance perhaps the only way to change your mind will one day happen when the brown stuff has hit the fan and those firefighters, ambulance and lifeboat personnel get you out of it
Perhaps it would be wise to wait untill the full facts are known before gobbing off! and also how much active, effective fire fighting was done by the undertrained non experianced members of the armed forces attending in outdated fire appliances....believe me I do know I had to try to train some of them, they were a shambles but never had a chance because experience cannot be learnt.
Rant over

we used old equipment to fight the fires, some of which broke and alot of lads were inexperienced and ill-trained! If the firefighters didnt go on strike then the inexperienced army personnel would not have needed to DO THEIR JOB FOR THEM! As for Ambulance crews, how many times in the last decade have they gone on strike? how many times have Nurses gone on strike? how many times has the Army gone on strike??



I guess you wouldnt mind if nurses went on strike?, then we could get the fire crews to do their jobs while still carrying out firefighting as well!

[Albannach]

Perhaps it would be wise to wait untill the full facts are known before gobbing off!

With respect, in this case, we do know exactly what happened. We have a 1st hand account from a fully equipped, fully trained, full time and vastly experienced firefighter.

What we don't know yet, is why it was allowed to happen...

[Albannach]

True, it said she died of a heart attack when she reached the surface.
She might not have been in imminent danger while she was down the hole.

Both points are irrelevant, John. She should never have been left, alive and conscious, but injured, in the mine shaft in the first place?

The thing I understand the least, is the firefighters' inability to think for themselves. Their inability to do something without being told it's ok to do it. That's just not natural.

[yoshie]

Both points are irrelevant, John. She should never have been left, alive and conscious, but injured, in the mine shaft in the first place?

The thing I understand the least, is the firefighters' inability to think for themselves. Their inability to do something without being told it's ok to do it. That's just not natural.

It perhaps is the flip side of that Andy.
It's being told NOT to do something.
I have over the years, been involved in some very emotionally charged incident command situations, where feelings always run high.
It is only because of trained disciplined operators that we have a long track record in successful resolution.
I am not suggesting that this death was a successful resolution. However, I do understand the circumstance under which this could have happened. It clearly needs to be operationally debriefed, lessons learned and changes in operating procedure adopted as a result.

One thing is for sure, to question the dedication or commitment of the Fire Fighters involved is at the very least misguided.

[slobodan]

The thing I understand the least, is the firefighters' inability to think for themselves. Their inability to do something without being told it's ok to do it. That's just not natural.

That's how the next generation are being brought up. unfortunately.

And I know I sound like an old git saying that, but it's true.

I used to like running with scissors. Sh!t, I can even spell scissors.

[blakarm]

One thing is for sure, to question the dedication or commitment of the Fire Fighters involved is at the very least misguided.

Ive no doubt these lads were pretty pi##ed off with what happened, and that they couldnt just get on with their job. I'm sure they must take on the job with dreams of helping people and saving lives.

They know the risks of blood loss, shock etc better than most, and how time can be key. I almost died mountaineering last year, when rockfall cut my anchor point, and I fell 100ft down a cliff face. Climbing partners would put their own life on the line to help, as I would for them. Even if they were strangers from another climbing party. My life is worth no more than theirs.

The point is, if we're happy to put our LIFE on the line to help others, I cant help but feel they'll regret letting it happen more than any repercussions that may have come from getting her out.

[Albannach]

One thing is for sure, to question the dedication or commitment of the Fire Fighters involved is at the very least misguided.

We'll agree to differ on that one.

My industry possibly has more hazards than any other and safety is its number one priority. But if anyone I know was standing with the correct equipment and training to save someone's life and a manager told them not to, the Manager would be told in no uncertain terms where to go.

As I said before, I could square it with myself if I lost my job to save someones life, I couldn't square it with myself if I allowed a life to be lost to save my job.

[adpsimpson]

If it's as it reads, the over reaching irony here is that "health and safety" legislation led to someone dying.

That would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.

[madcampbell]

The strange thing to this is that DRA (dynamic Risk Assessment) is to balance risk against success

To lift someone out of a hole in a vertical position can kill them (in some circumstances) as apposed to a horizontal one......but you may have to do this if time pressures are against you e.g. the on set of hypothermia or an injury that will also be fatal if untreated.

So how was it safer to do a rescue 6 hours later on a dead body ? what had changed? was there a piece of safety kit they where waiting for? a specialist access team? did it take 6 hours to make it safe?



Anyone know what changed?

[gwh200]

What changed... The usually office bound elfnsayftee wallah was eventually over ridden.

I only expected this sort of lunacy in England...