Useless....

[Apache]

So if the choice was do the job you are in, to their rules, whist it, and the people in it p1ss you off - or, because it offends some personal moral, scrounge from the tax payer.

Yep, very moral choice Matt. To be applauded.

Anyway, enough of this thread now. You are p1ssing me off, and I dont come here for that, I come here to p1ss OTHER people off

[biosurf]

Hey Rod
To shift away from the moral maze for a bit

There are a few things you could do if you're not sure what you want to do next.
Find your local careers centre and book an appointment - yes they tend to be staffed by sanctimonious ######s but I did it when I was looking at changing career and though they are clearly used to seeing school leavers etc. it was still useful. Not becasue they recommended a career as such but because the questions they asked me in interview made how I fell clearer (it was odd- hearing myself give some of the answers clarified how I feel) and it really did help.

I also got a book called 'what colour is your parachute' which is again about finding the careeer for you and is one of the most ####y books you will ever pick up (partly because its very american and shows) but again it gets you to go through a few Q+A's etc that are pretty useful and clarify the types of things that work for you. dont expect to enjoy it (its bad enough that I amost think we should have a whip round top send matt a copy as I think his head would explode in a technicolour kablooie of vitriol)

If you do see a job you like advertised, dont just sedn inj your CV and hope for the best - it will usually go to an HR department who dont give a shit about you or the job and are using a very black and white way of judging which of the CV's fit- if its different to what you've done you can be consigned to the bin before the managhers even seen it. If you want to give yourself the best chance look at the job spec- work out who the manager is and get to them via the phone- call up and ask forthem by name and wing it. Rather than saying 'hi i'm interested in x job' - (they will instantly direct you to HR) start by saying what and who you are i.e. 'hi my names rod, ive been working in a customer based industry managing my own workload and deealing with a range of customeers in their homes with a range of problems, now looking to furether my carer and use my written skillss blah blah blah' whatever works. just work out what your selling points are (maybe from your book and career centre knowledge) intro yourself with that then move on to 'i have seen x job adveretised, I like your company because (drop in a piece of knowledge about something recent they have done- look on their webste) and wondered if you could tell me a bit more about the role'
This way you are speakingh to the one personm who cares about getting someone they like, can get on with etc. in the role and hopefully they may ask you to send them your CV direct.

If you are thinkinjg of counselling either find one in the local yellow pages and just call them for adice on how they did it and what it involves- most people arehappy to talk about themse;ves or ask around your friends (and forums ) to see if anyone you knowe knows someone you could speak to.

If you want any advice on your CV or want to chat over the phone about anything drop me a PM. happy to help in any way I can.

[Apache]

I have a CV written in the latest accepted way (just a year or so old). You can have it in template form if it would help.

Agree with bio here. Dont just stick to the normal channels, and dont just apply for advertised jobs. If there's something you fancy, even if they aren't advertising, bung a CV to them as I'm sure in some cases they say 'hey, maybe we could use this guy to do 'X'. Even if 'X' isn't ideal, suck it up and prove how good you are. If they aren't stupid, and you work hard, soon enough you'll get the opportunity to have a crack at what you wanted to do. It really is down to you, and how much you want it.

Thats how I've got two of the four proper jobs I've had. The one at the airfield I worked at from 19 to 32, I turned up at security in shorts and a T-shirt (I was on holiday in the area) and basically asked to see the Personnel Manager, which I managed after a bit of wrangling. Got in there, had a cuppa, told him how brilliant an electronics engineer I was (cough), got transferred to the bases Electronics chief, got grilled, got a walk around and a 'thanks we'll let you know'. 6 weeks later, they rang me and offered me a job!

Same with the job I'm in now.

[Apache]

Catering for your edit here. A roof over ones head and food on the table is all that one *needs* to achieve in life. Everything else is a bonus and possibly something to aim for, but never the be all and end all. Money does not happiness make. One can provide a roof and meals with far more modest incomes and jobs, however.

And where did I say otherwise??

Like I said, I'd wash dishes, serve Big Macs, whatever I need to do to support my family.

I wont however sit back until something I feel isn't beneath me comes along.

[darkdezigns]

I have a CV written in the latest accepted way (just a year or so old). You can have it in template form if it would help.

Agree with bio here. Dont just stick to the normal channels, and dont just apply for advertised jobs. If there's something you fancy, even if they aren't advertising, bung a CV to them as I'm sure in some cases they say 'hey, maybe we could use this guy to do 'X'. Even if 'X' isn't ideal, suck it up and prove how good you are. If they aren't stupid, and you work hard, soon enough you'll get the opportunity to have a crack at what you wanted to do. It really is down to you, and how much you want it.

Thats how I've got two of the four proper jobs I've had. The one at the airfield I worked at from 19 to 32, I turned up at security in shorts and a T-shirt (I was on holiday in the area) and basically asked to see the Personnel Manager, which I managed after a bit of wrangling. Got in there, had a cuppa, told him how brilliant an electronics engineer I was (cough), got transferred to the bases Electronics chief, got grilled, got a walk around and a 'thanks we'll let you know'. 6 weeks later, they rang me and offered me a job!

Same with the job I'm in now.

can i have that template plz?

[darkdezigns]

Top man. Only thing worse than an arse kisser is someone who ignores their morals and arse kisses. I'd rather scrub floors than egotise some arsewipe.

Nope. The impression you should be getting is that some people would rather shovel sh1t for a living in the blackest hellhole than have to pucker up and become a yes boy for a worthless t0sser. Some would rather sacrifice financial gain and retain their dignity and morals rather than vice versa. Just because that's how the system generally works doesn't mean you have to play the game by their rules. I prefer dignity and morals, personally. And I still manage to pay the mortgage.

With regards to your initial question, btw, what you are implying is being an arse kisser.

thats sums me up 100%,cheers matt

[Apache]

can i have that template plz?

Remind me on Sunday night, or Monday cos its on my PC at home and I'm away for the weekend. It'll be quicker if you dont mind reading about me but you can just substitute your stuff for mine leaving the layout the same.

[biosurf]

A really key thing with any CV is to make the facts that you put in quantifiable.
too many people list their responsibilities in a role. this just tells then what your job was, not whether you did it well or not.
If you can put achievements and responsibilities and bullet point them it can make it a lot stronger. i.e. if you were dealing with anything at all that you can put a figure on i.e. number of call-outs, amount of sales, time spent on jobs or whatever. You can then compare what you did to your targets, other peoples performance in the same job or whatever. Gives a reference point for them to see how you did. Really good to do this if you're changing roles as the persona reading your CV may not understand what you have done before but will understand that you did it better than somone else for example.

nice one Andy on the template. Its always so much easier to work from an outline than form a blank sheet of paper.

[Apache]

yeah, from memory, for each employment, mine gives an outline of what the job entailed, my responsibilities, and then a bulleted series of short paragraphs on the key achievements. Keep it simple and readable is a key. If its long an blustering (like my forum posts), people stop reading and go on to the next offering (like my forum posts)

[Sancho]

I think the cause of this discussion (other than MattF and Apache's desire to argue with anyone) is a difference of opinion over what constitutes arse-kissing. What I and, I think, Apache are advocating is not letting your personal pride get in the way of doing your job to the best of your ability.

I'm a consultant (and, hence, the scum of the earth) and the only work I get is in organisations where they either can't recruit someone to do a job or where the people doing the job aren't doing very well. In either situation the cause is that the organisation itself is a mess, normally because the senior managers (the same people that hire me to 'fix' things) are incompetent or abusive.

I can see this pretty much as soon as I walk in the door, but my job is to do what they want me to do regardless of what I think of them. I don't kiss their arses, and I have nothing to gain from doing so, but if I constantly fight them they will get nowhere and I will lose my contract. Working with them and earning their trust slowly gives me the ability to steer them in the right direction and help the organisation and the people that work for it.

My point, anyway, is that you can ignore people, argue with them and tell them to stick it up their arse as much as you like but you won't change them or help you. If you don't like a work situation you have the choice of leaving or wearing it for a bit to get longer term benefits (not just money, but influence, camaraderie and, eventually, job satisfaction). Work is like 'personal relationships' - as Barry White said "I took the good times, I'll take the bad times".

Just to clarify, Matt, my advice to Rod was to stick with plumbing for now. His only issue with it seems to be that it's causing him pain and I also suggested he got that dealt with properly. I also suggested that he considers what he might want to do longer term, and considers getting some recognised qualifications. I also made the point that he should try things without fear as it's never too late to change your mind and try something else.

If you think that is poor advice, I am surprised but unmoved.

[Sancho]

If its long an blustering (like my forum posts), people stop reading and go on to the next offering (like my forum posts)

Oh b0llocks. You mean no-one reads this stuff?

[Apache]

Sanch, your long post is almost precisely what I was trying to get across in my own, probably poorly worded, angry-head way.

However, I have no doubt Matt will be along to pick holes and argue 'black is if fact a dark shade of white' with you when the lazy work-shy git gets out of bed

[Sancho]

'black is if fact a dark shade of white'

But black is the absence of light or colour whilst white is its very antithesis, an infinite and equal abundance of all all colours....

[Apache]

But black is the absence of light or colour whilst white is its very antithesis, an infinite and equal abundance of all all colours....

<opens popcorn>

Mind you, its a bit early... I'll be in Wales when he logs in...

[Bibs]

<opens popcorn>

Mind you, its a bit early... I'll be in Wales when he logs in...

I won't, (well, already am technically) will be keepin' an eye out for his reply