Cooking oil users..

[max6674]

you know when you prime the diesel filter, well would this help when you have cold weather? eg push the primer button so many times that the pressure is great enough to help move the thicker stuff through?

Again.. why would you want to do this eveytime you start the car in cold weather.. I want to get in and drive!

Its also not going to help get the thick stuff through the small holes in the in injectors..

[TonyN]

Its also not going to help get the thick stuff through the small holes in the in injectors..

yeah, you'll never find a way of preheating the injectors enough to loosen the veg, unless you run core plug heaters, and have a electronic water pump that can start to warm up the engine a couple of hours before driving off.

a dual tank system is far easier.

[mcubbin]

aberdeen to crete on cooking oil

Just back and interested to see the posts, to test the system I decided to drive to Crete on veg oil. No problem whatsoever, intial start up on diesel 10 mins or so to get up to 50 degrees c, then straight veg oil. Will be driving it back end of september
You can run your car on straight veg oil without any conversion, I have tried it in an old 1.9 td volvo, intially a bit lumpy then no problem when the engine heats up, but what is that initial period doing to the injection pump, most injection pumps are lubricated by the diesel running through them, thick cold oil will not do this . There is no dispute that the hotter the oil the better and that should be one of the main criteria in designing a system, also reliability having your fuel cut out on you at the wrong moment can be bad.
For those unfamiliar with the two tank system, you have a second tank in the boot or in the case of the surf fixed in the boot area behind the left wheel arch, this tank holds the start up diesel. You have two solonoid valves, one to select with tank to draw fuel from and another to select wether to return the fuel or loop it (looping lessens the demand on the fuel pump and also keeps the temp higher). At its simplest that is the system you start the car on diesel and when the engine is hot you switch to veg oil.
In order to improve the system we add a few other components, even with the engine hot it is unlikely that the heat of the engine will raise the temp of the cold oil sufficiently in order that all the oil will be atomised, so we want to heat the oil before it hits the injectors, the best way to do this is a heat exchanger which draws heat from the cooling system and transfers it to the oil, ideally you want your oil to be around 50 degrees c before it hits the injectors. Again we could stop there, but heating the fuel filter is also desirable because cold veg oil will very quickly clog the paper element particularly in winter. In my system I have fitted a seperate heated filter to run the oil through while retaining the diesel filter.

The Components, when sourcing the componnents I did not look for the cheapest, the parts which I deemed to be critical to the system were chosen for reliability and performance.

Solonoid valves, there are inexpensive valves which have been used to good effect the 'pollack' six port is popular, but it does have temp and pressure limitations and is made of plastic. I am sure they work but for how long.
My system uses Sirai Valves
http://www.zoedale.co.uk/news/detail.asp?id=19&PageNo=1
http://www.zoedale.co.uk/uploaded_ph...L340%20ZEL.pdf
This valve is made of aluminium and stainless steel and importantly in relation to other valves it has a 12mm orifice, many cheaper valves have smaller orifices, so your 10mm fuel lines get strangled.

Heat Exchanger, large 18 kw plate heat exchanger, with 10mm fuel connections and 18 mm coolant connectors, this gets the fuel hot quickly again there are cheaper alternatives but at £1.00 a litre you want to be on diesel for as short a time as possible.

Heated fuel filter, aluminium filter head takes heat from coolant, comes with 10mm fuel connectors, the purpose of this item is not to prepare the fuel but rather to extend the life of your filters, (it takes standard filters) by preventing the oil from clogging the filter.

Additional Tank, I use an upright jerry can style marine outboard tank, I found this the most space saving for the surf, the tank is fixed in between the tailgate and the rear wheel arch on the left side, this also makes refueling simple. The tank is fitted for a return line and uses a non return valve for a breather

Digital temprature gauge, some kits on the market use control systems which set of buzzers and supposedly automate the system, all the more to go wrong as far as I am concerned and in many kits this is where your money goes rather than on the crucial components. I use two switches, the stainless steel ones with the on and off tabs, one for each valve, on start up both are at off and the fuel is being drawn from the aux diesel tank and returned to the same. I have a small digital temp gauge on the dash this is connected to the return fuel line at the injection pump, when the gauge reads 45 degrees c I flip both switches to on selecting the main tank (oil) and looping the return line. Thats it, when you are going to stop the car for longer periods you purge the system of oil,by switching to diesel, and still looping for a few minutes, this can also be done after you have stopped the car.
Lift pump, at the moment I do not have one but I have sourced a suitable one and will add one to my system, mainly to reduce the load on the injection pump in winter when the oil will be heavier.

Fuel lines, connectors, coolant lines, electrical connectors, fuel line fixings, chrome in line filter, non return valves.
Everything required apart from the odd screw and bracket to fix the components, this will depend on the layout. But I certainly can advise on second gen 3.0 l surfs.

On a 3.00 l surf this system works and works well, I cant speak about other models, but I would think all surfs, land cruisers would do well .

I could supply this as a kit for around £600, I would include detailed instructions, drawings, advice on location of components and tips on avoiding the pitfalls that I found. I made brackets for the valves, fuel filter and tank, simple to make if you have access to a welder, but again I would include basic plans for these. So you could have them made. Someone with basic mechanical skills should be able to do the conversion in a weekend, its a plumbing job really.
One last thing for those unaware of the situation, as from june 2007 there is no requirement to declare or pay duty on the use of veg oil as a fuel provided that you use up to or less than 2,500 litres per year, on my last visit costco 20 litres of veg oil cost £9.85. Fairly takes your eye of that fuel gauge.
Anyone interested contact me brian@crete-propertysales.com

[MattF]

Are components for heating the fuel lines themselves in the kit, or is fuel line heating not done? Is there an oil tank heater? Do you have any pics, preferably of a completed installation?

[Apache]

Looks like a hell of a lot of faff to be honest. I run about 60% SVO with no issues at all. In the winter I will probably reduce it and see how it goes, and might fit a fuel heater, but thats it.

All this dual tank / switching solenoids / switching back and forth at the beginning and end of the journey is all a bit too 'hairshirt' really.

[Scorpion]

Running 50 / 50 at the minute with absolutely no problems. As Apache stated if things start to go 'lumpy' when the colder weather draws in I'll reduce the amount of veggie.

[dirtydog]

im on about 85% veg at the mo and I find the more I mix diesel the worse it starts - weird but true. 50/50 starts horribly for me. as long as I double/triple heat the glow plugs im ok, if not it will still start but is really chuggy to begin with which I dont like.
I run a fuelcat so its all warmed up by time ive done a mile or two anyway.

[The Lang-Shankit Scunner]

The only problem with mixing is long term damage to fuel system. Cold oil slips past seals into your sump and polymerises. Also it doesnt ignite fully leaving a residue in your pots that gums them up until potentially costly repairs. Two tank system illiminates this. plus less strain on the pump is essential as if it struggles it will eventually die on you. Look at www.dieselveg.com thats where i got my kit, also you will have to change your pump top seals possibly as veg makes them leak.

[max6674]

The only problem with mixing is long term damage to fuel system. Cold oil slips past seals into your sump and polymerises. Also it doesnt ignite fully leaving a residue in your pots that gums them up until potentially costly repairs. Two tank system illiminates this. plus less strain on the pump is essential as if it struggles it will eventually die on you. Look at www.dieselveg.com thats where i got my kit, also you will have to change your pump top seals possibly as veg makes them leak.

I dont see how mixing will cause damage to the fuel system, after all this is what bio-diesel is. I have run SVO, mixed from 10 to 90% SVO with aditives in like petrol and not a hint on a leak or any other issues..

[MattF]

I dont see how mixing will cause damage to the fuel system, after all this is what bio-diesel is. I have run SVO, mixed from 10 to 90% SVO with aditives in like petrol and not a hint on a leak or any other issues..

Biodiesel is a completely different scenario. Biodiesel is VO with glycerin/fat content removed, so it's viscosity is far lower than VO. It's the viscosity which is the main cause of problems. As mentioned previously, there's extra strain on the fuel system and another point is that the spray pattern from the injectors is vastly different with cold VO compared to diesel, hence why 100% unheated VO is not a perfect option, although it is viable with indirect injection engines within reason. Biodiesel, on the other hand, has characteristics closer to standard derv.

It's a flip of the coin which you prefer personally. Initial processing for biodiesel, or fuel system customisation or blending for VO. I'd personally go for VO every time.

[MattF]

also you will have to change your pump top seals possibly as veg makes them leak.

That is blatantly incorrect. Some leaking may occur with VO use, but that is particular to each vehicle and, more precisely, the vehicles fuel system condition. It is not a broad, cover all fact.

[max6674]

Biodiesel is a completely different scenario. Biodiesel is VO with glycerin/fat content removed, so it's viscosity is far lower than VO. It's the viscosity which is the main cause of problems. As mentioned previously, there's extra strain on the fuel system and another point is that the spray pattern from the injectors is vastly different with cold VO compared to diesel, hence why 100% unheated VO is not a perfect option, although it is viable with indirect injection engines within reason. Biodiesel, on the other hand, has characteristics closer to standard derv.

It's a flip of the coin which you prefer personally. Initial processing for biodiesel, or fuel system customisation or blending for VO. I'd personally go for VO every time.

Well since I started this post back in the day I have now realised that its best to run the car on diesel until it has warmed up etc them flick it into SVO and then do the last 5 mins of the journey on diesel again to give it a "clear out".

I got a question for you then Matt, what is the % of VO to diesel in bio-diesel? My mate runs something called an Isuzu Duty (strange bloke that he is) and has just started to use BD from a new producer here in Rochdale. My mate has had to drop one tank full of BD as the Duty died and would not start for the life of it. He said that when he dropped the DB into a bucket it looked like it had split or seperated. Could this be down to the WVO not being cleaned etc?

[MattF]

Well since I started this post back in the day I have now realised that its best to run the car on diesel until it has warmed up etc them flick it into SVO and then do the last 5 mins of the journey on diesel again to give it a "clear out".

The above is dependant on which modifications you do to the fuel system. For a standard inline coolant or electric fuel heater, with no extra additions, running 100% VO, then the above is true. If, however, you go the full hog on the fuel system. or take, for example, the Elsbett approach, that wouldn't be specifically required.

I got a question for you then Matt, what is the % of VO to diesel in bio-diesel? My mate runs something called an Isuzu Duty (strange bloke that he is) and has just started to use BD from a new producer here in Rochdale. My mate has had to drop one tank full of BD as the Duty died and would not start for the life of it. He said that when he dropped the DB into a bucket it looked like it had split or seperated. Could this be down to the WVO not being cleaned etc?

There is, technically, no VO in biodiesel. The conversion process creates two separate parts from the VO, so neither is VO. Plus there are a lot of misleading uses of the term biodiesel. For example, the petro industry. They class biodiesel as a derv/biodiesel mix. Technically, that is not true biodiesel. There are also the private producers who class biodiesel as VO which has some usually unknown to anyone but themselves process carried out upon it. There are a *lot* of misleading, (and sometimes downright criminal), uses of the term biodiesel floating about.

If your friend had something that looked like coagulated oil, or oil with water in it, then I would surmise he uses one of the smaller private producers with their own 'proprietary' treatment process. Proprietary can mean anything from doing bugger all to the oil upto just shy of proper conversion.

[mcubbin]

I have no doubt that veg oil mixes will run the car without problems, for a while, perhaps even for the time you own the car. But the consensus of informed opinion is that, in order to avoid numerous problems, many already mentioned you must have some sort of system which alters the properties of the oil i.e heats it, the hotter the better, these stories of trouble free driving, I just bang it in, how many will admit to the fact that they eventually knackered their injection pumps. Also a 60/40 mix is still costing 70 p a litre as opposed to 50p a litre, plus all the mixing, another point you must pre mix the diesel and oil, just shoving it in will not mix it.

Re the Dieselveg kits and Surfs, I also considered them but compare
The 10mm kit @ £470
heat exchanger, 2000 watt, 8mm fuel connection and 12mm coolant connections. They say it is a 10mm kit but the only thing that is 10 mm is the fuel pipe, if you opt for the the larger heat exchanger the price goes up to £587.20. In fact its strange but there is no difference between the 8mm and 10mm kits apart from the id of the fuel lines and yet there is a £40 difference in price.
my heat exchanger, 18 kw, 10mm fuel connections and 18 mm coolant.
the dieselveg pre heater is glow plug based and rated at 200w, very ineffective.
The valves are of a reasonable quality but not as good as the Sirai valves.
The filters, switches are cheap and nasty. And apart from some fuel pipe, connectors and hose clips thats your lot.
What you dont get,
Aux tank and connectors
Coolant heated filter head and filter
Pipe and various connectors for connecting coolant system to heat exchanger and heated filter head.
Good quality stainless steel switches.
Digital temp gauge.
Good quality in line chrome fuel filter
12v fuel lift pump.
Sorry cant post pictures of system in place at the moment, surf is still in Crete, but I will be driving back first week in October, will do it then.

Heating the fuel lines and tank is not needed in this country, not cold enough however you could add a heated fuel line to the system.

[Apache]

That is blatantly incorrect. Some leaking may occur with VO use, but that is particular to each vehicle and, more precisely, the vehicles fuel system condition. It is not a broad, cover all fact.

To be honest, companies who supply parts for veg oil conversions are not going to turn around and say "you dont need any bits we sell, you can just mix veg with diesel" are they?

I imagine those with a vested interest in selling heaters, special tanks, solenoids, etc are going to perhaps suggest that all might not be well if you dont use their equipment, dont you? It's called 'marketing'

(Sorry, born cynic)