Phone Call from Customs and Excise

[the careful driver]

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsP...HMCE_CL_000205


click on the above link, something I hadn't seen before, and it just reaffirms what the law was all along .....


Extract ..

2.1 What do you mean by Biodiesel, Bioblend, Bioethanol and Bioethanol blend?

The law describes 'Biodiesel' as a diesel quality liquid fuel that is produced from biomass or waste cooking oil:

the ester content of which is not less than 96.5% by weight; and
the sulphur content of which does not exceed 0.005% by weight, or is nil.
'Bioblend' means any mixture that is produced by mixing:

Biodiesel; and
heavy oil that has not been charged with the excise duty on hydrocarbon oil.
'Bioethanol' means a liquid fuel:

consisting of ethanol produced from biomass; and
capable of being used for the same purposes as light oil.
'Bioethanol blend' means any mixture that is produced by mixing:

bioethanol; and
hydrocarbon oil not charged with excise duty.



2.2 Other fuel substitutes

Any liquid that is not hydrocarbon oil, biodiesel, bioblend, bioethanol or bioethanol blend but is used in place of mineral oil to fuel any engine, motor or other machinery is classed as a fuel substitute. Please see section 3.1.1 for further details. This includes:

any liquid used as a fuel in place of mineral oil;
any liquid which is used as an additive or extender to a mineral oil; or
any liquid which is used as an additive or extender in a fuel substitute.
However, water is not considered to be a fuel substitute when used in a diesel emulsion when the emulsion is stabilised with additives. Duty is charged only on the non-water part of the fuel.


Extract ends.

Me now ..

The person who replied to your letter had actually read it hadn't they ! It made them think, even if they didn't quite answer all the points. (What is the point of taking legal advice if you can't tell anyone what it is in case people question it. ?!! Those lawyers are shy. )

Well plugged away. I may be having to sign up myself soon!

Peter

[CaptainBeaky]

Very encouraging! Sounds like someone has realised that they don't, in fact, have a leg to stand on...
Well persisted, Keith - watching this with great interest.

Almost time to convice the management we need to "go veggie"!

[the careful driver]

Net Ester Definition.

http://www.answers.com/topic/ester

I get about half of this ! A bit obscure, but seemingly helpful.
Are Plant Oils Esters ? Not Sure or Unsure .... !

P

[CaptainBeaky]

http://www.answers.com/topic/ester

I get about half of this ! A bit obscure, but seemingly helpful.
Are Plant Oils Esters ? Not Sure or Unsure .... !

P

Yes, plant oils ARE esters - esters of glycerol (the alcohol part) and a variety of fatty acids - stearic acid, palmitic acid to name but two.
Glycerol has 3 -OH groups on, so can react with up to 3 fatty acid molecules - all the same type or a mixture of types.

The transesterified oils are simply where the glycerol has been swapped for methanol, to give the methyl esters of the same fatty acids as above.
The difference is that the methyl esters have a viscosity profile closer to that of DERV.


To summarise, YES.

[the careful driver]

Yes, plant oils ARE esters - esters of glycerol .

Thank you well summarized. So the methanol just sort of makes the molecules lighter and less gangly so its more liquified? (at room temp)

So the tax definition is very fulfilled.

Thanks for clarifying.

Peter

[hawkwind]

I dont know if this link has been posted before.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...ds_038897.hcsp

Click on fuel duty link.

1.1 Fuel Duty Fuel Duty differentials are currently the UK's primary means of support for biofuels. In addition to the 20 pence per litre duty incentive on biodiesel which has been in place since July 2002, a similar duty differential for Bioethanol (a petrol extender) was introduced on 1 January this year. Budget 2005 announced that these duty differentials will now continue until 2008, consistent with the UK Government's commitment under the Alternative Fuels Framework to provide 3 year rolling certainty on duty differentials. The latest provisional figures indicate that biofuels sales are currently (May 2005) running at some 10.7 million litres a month. This is a major increase since the end of 2004, and a direct result of the 20 pence per litre fuel duty incentive that now applies for Bioethanol.

[Gizmo]

When you read the reply sent to my earlier request for information you will weep. They copped out.

Any thoughts from anyone?

I am getting together a suitable reply. I still don't think they have answered my question about re-registering me as a 'biodiesel' producer and from what I can see on the amended 179e (which I just recieved a shiney new copy of through (typo the f1nger5 are fa5t3r than the brain :0( )the post) veg oil still meets their 'fiscal definition'

Regards all
Keith

Just reading the letter had to make me laugh. How are they able to provide a costing to look up the information if they dont have the information already at hand to work out the manpower and hours required to provide you with your request.



From your last letters recieved from the HCME, isnt it implying that because you are mixing the two products [VO and Diesel] you are the producer and if so it implies that you have to prove beyond doubt that your production meets their standards......sorry just read the other thread keep up the good work.

[the careful driver]

Errrr !!!!!!!!!!! ***** !!!

I dont know if this link has been posted before.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...ds_038897.hcsp

Click on fuel duty link.

That is Hawkwinds link, thank you.

Now actually, the Government, this paper says is supporting a 'Hydrogenation' process of creating Biodiesel.

What this means (read it !) is that they are pouring neat Vegoil into normal diesel

!!!!!!!!!

Whomever thought the government was consistent !

[the careful driver]

Presumably though the tax deparment will call this replacement diesel, rather than Biodiesel ??!!**8***!!!

'Hydrogenation' so far as it makes sense to me, is pouring vegoil (be it rapeseed here), into Dino, normal diesel.

Am going to do some net research

P

[mooter]

just read through this whole thread from beginning to end - well done all involved! might have to send me some letters tomorrow, I really like winding up officials, it's a hobby of mine

[shaggy]

keith p are you still around m8
has anything else happened regarding this or has the thread been started again somewhere else?

[legendgamesmaster]

Stick To The Law

GUYS!!!

Dont try to pull a fast one with HMCE. If you use veggie (whatever type / blend etc) - fill in the forms CORRECTLY and don't lie. If it ever comes down to court cases, you have to be squeeky clean - don't give them a rope to hang you from. let them hang themselves.

If you buy biodiesel from a supplier, keep your reciepts - you don't want pc plod smelling your chip wagon smell and ASSUMING you are running svo from Waitrose (we posh here see) and then you not being able to prove its biodiesel.

Good luck all.

andy

[amethyst]

my ex103 form was sent off last week (monday) how long does the process take for them to register me and send stuff back?

Cant wait to start using the oil i bought...

Stu

[stormforce]

my ex103 form was sent off last week (monday) how long does the process take for them to register me and send stuff back?

Cant wait to start using the oil i bought...

Stu

mine took a couple of weeks to come back with a ref/reg number which you use each time you have to pay

[hawkwind]

Do you also have to tell them how many miles that you do and how much diesel that you use or is it just sending receipts of the veg oil that you use??