Phone Call from Customs and Excise

[CaptainBeaky]

Rica

Be aware - BioPower have a big vested interest here - they have been pushing their version of biodiesel very hard to HMRC, at the expense of SVO. In fact, their literature specifically states their view that SVO is not suitable for use, and they give some spurious, pseudo-scientific c r a p to back up their assertions - see my rant on this subject a few pages back on this thread.
IMHO, their main brief is to safeguard their business, not to further the cause of veg-oil use in general, so I would be somewhat wary of giving them and their arguments any unwarranted legitimacy by joining their "association".

My 2p worth

[Chillitt]

we have a new member here, name of gompertz, doing a bit on Working Lunch (bbc dont you know) looking to find a veg oil user to appear in an item on the tax issues around veg oil. any volenteers?

[the careful driver]

we have a new member here, name of gompertz

If Keith or anyone else doesn't want to do it I would be happy to.
I tried sending gompertz a message but the system wouldn't let me.
To whomever this may concern ?! (Not sure how to let gompertz know Chillit).

Byee

Peter Grimshaw
07780 814581

[Chillitt]

he e-mailed me earlier, (lord knows why he picked me!) i can pass on your number if thats ok?

[That Ruddy Squirrel]

He rang me yesterday - I suggested that he read up on items here, and have subsequently emailed to the "Wroking Lunch" team the links for this and the Veg "sticky" here as well as a similar thread on the Pa***o forums.

I was invited to take part but I unfortunately don't have the time at present

I wonder if Philip could add his two pennyworth to this research, and if one of our American members could give a valuable insight as to how their government deal with this subject.


Trev

[ecosurf]

What's the charge, gov'nor?

Hey all, just joined up this forum, hopefully getting my first Toyota Surf tomorrow (if he ain't sold it!) and I'm certainly gonna run on eco-friendly fuel, as much as possible.

This thead is great, with some very well reserached information. It's always a problem getting someone in Government/C&E/etc to listen to these arguements, no matter how much sense they make, which leads me to...

.. what's the maximum sentence (prison/fine?) for not paying duty on SVO, or paying the lowest (27p?) that should be paid? I recon a good way to get this into the media would be to refuse to pay the full whack, and get threatened with legal action. Maybe the media would take my side and show me as a 'vehicular eco-hero', willing to pay what's fair, and not a penny more. If it was a few months in nick or a fine, I may be willing to risk it.

Any thoughts?

[Chillitt]

Any thoughts?

yeah. you are going to fit in here just fine!

[ecosurf]

yeah. you are going to fit in here just fine!

Cheers Chillitt! Just keeping my fingers crossed the Surf ain't sold tomorrow, otherwise it'll be difficult fitting in driving this (borrowed) Ford Escort!

[fatfires]

a friend

Hey all, just joined up this forum, hopefully getting my first Toyota Surf tomorrow (if he ain't sold it!) and I'm certainly gonna run on eco-friendly fuel, as much as possible.

This thead is great, with some very well reserached information. It's always a problem getting someone in Government/C&E/etc to listen to these arguements, no matter how much sense they make, which leads me to...

.. what's the maximum sentence (prison/fine?) for not paying duty on SVO, or paying the lowest (27p?) that should be paid? I recon a good way to get this into the media would be to refuse to pay the full whack, and get threatened with legal action. Maybe the media would take my side and show me as a 'vehicular eco-hero', willing to pay what's fair, and not a penny more. If it was a few months in nick or a fine, I may be willing to risk it.

Any thoughts?

I have a (friend) who has just filled up with biofuel WVO based and has an invoice for the same showing the duty paid. He now reccons that if he were to put in VO £1.25 from tesco for 3 litres no one HMC&E included would be able to tell as biofuel has no indicator to show that duty has been paid on it.....annnnnd as he is going to have a mix of dino, veg and bio in his tank it would appear he has his options covered
Whats your opinions folks????????????
I am sure my friend would love to know................I believe he has a blue one too!!!!!!!!!

[andycook]

All I can say is when I had customs officer visit the other week - he told me he has been looking on web at forums like our one ! for stories like this!

[fatfires]

All I can say is when I had customs officer visit the other week - he told me he has been looking on web at forums like our one ! for stories like this!

I will make sure I tell my friend that it might be a bad idea to try to fool the nice men at HMC&E

[KeithP]

So sorry guys been busy, got back to this and saw the extras posted since my last.

Regarding 'Bio Power' I totally agree with Cap Beakey

"IMHO, their main brief is to safeguard their business, not to further the cause of veg-oil use in general, so I would be somewhat wary of giving them and their arguments any unwarranted legitimacy by joining their "association".

Don't join up... Individuals need to tackle this, hopefully along the lines I have done. The local paper has just printed an article this week concerning the under table increase on red diesel for the farmers. On the same page they have stated that owners of diesel vehicles have found they can run on a straight mix of 60/40 derv/veg and advocate going to the local supermarkets but not let the tax man find you out!

Great but... the consequencies?
Not letting that one go, letter to the editor as we speak... so to speak;-)

Do it legit!

I'm still arguing my corner but paying at the moment the higher rate. When/if they see my side I will request a refund of 'over payments'. Look at it as an investment.


Fatfires: When registered as a substitute or biodiesel, so long as you keep accounts, if you're dipped who knows what you've put in.

Andycook:"All I can say is when I had customs officer visit the other week - he told me he has been looking on web at forums like our one ! for stories like this!"
Did he say why?

Keep you updated when I get a reply

Regards all
Keith

[the careful driver]

So long as you can marshall your facts and arguments, and so long as you can debunk obfuscating **** that HMC&E throw up, your legal position is solid.

Like, they have said to Keith here 'we have asked our legal experts'. So what? Means nothing, just sounds a bit threatening. So long as you can shrink their 'legal experts' or whatever else they throw up in the eyes of the judge/jury.

I think your legal position is very strong.

All biofuel is made from biomass and that is the critical definition in the 2002 legislation. And that it is a diesel replacement. Absolutely nothing about the biofuel being created by transesterification.

On another point, oil is already being made from biomass using a thermal destructuring technique in america and apparently you can use many different sorts of biomass to create oil this way. (They put it all in a kind of pressure-cooker and out comes oil.) Believe it or not, the first plant is using, grossly, turkey necks from a nearby turkey processing plant to get their biomass (yeeurrgghhh!). But the HMCE position is obviously hampering any weird and wonderful technological developments such as that since that is not a transesterification process, but it is very green (the original point of the legislation).

If you want to cover yourself, pay the 27p, put a further 20p or whatever into another account, and say to HMC&E please take me to court.

Peter

[andycook]

The customs officer was just doing his own research into the bio and veg thing, to get a cleared picture of the issue and not just going by what the HMC&E policy people were telling him - i.e. a more ubiased view. Also he was interested to know what people said about HMC&E on forums.
the main one he had been looking at was www.vegetableoildiesel.co - the "goat industries" one.

[KeithP]

Well, looks like someone can read joined up writing

Hello All,
Received this one back in reply to my previous. From what I can make out it still looks like a fob off concerning the 'advice' received. Of interest though is the last paragraph. There are now no catogries so we are all lumped under 'motor and heading fuel producers'. All I now have to do is show that my fuel meets the spec for biodiesel in HODA 1979 Section 2AA. I think I am almost there with that one..

Does anyone know or have contacts that could supply me with a chemical breakdown of veg oil, preferably from a manufacturer of the stuff, and would be willing for that statement to be used/quoted. If they then cannot argue with that I think I will be re-submitting for the lower rate.

I am also sending letters of to any producers of veg oil myself for the above spec.

Regards all

Keith