1995 Hilux SW4 (2.8 NA) Starting Problems

[Ptarmigan]

Hi all,

First of all I should say what a great forum. I already solved several problems just by reading posts so thanks to everyone who contributes. This is my first post but I've spent quite a long time reading other threads and not been able to solve my problem so hoping to now get a tip to point me in one direction or another.

General Description:
I turn the key to the position where the glow plugs come on.
The lamp on the dash comes on, then goes off.
I wait another 15 seconds expecting a beep but I never hear one, only a soft click.
I turn the key to start but nothing happens: no lights dimming, no clicks, no solenoid noise, no thuds from the motor, absolutely nothing at all.
I release and turn the key the second time and the car (95% of the time) starts like a champ, straight away.

To make things more complicated, very occasionally it will start on the first go. However, unfortunately, also very occasionally it doesnt start on the second, 3rd, 4th, 5th etc..... On the occasions where it wouldn't start at all, a jump start (after leaving the donor car running and connected for at least 5 minutes) "fixed" the problem but I have a strong feeling it's just coincidence.

Attempted fixes:
I've cleaned the fusable links which were white with corrosion; no change.
I connected a jump lead from the battery negative to a bolt on the motor rocker cover; no change.
I inspected all fuses and found the one marked 7.5Amps (charging) was burned so replaced with a 10Amp to hand; I think it's for a dash light anyway. No change.
The relay marked "starter" from the engine bay is missing completely but also the fuse box has no metal on the female side so I suspect it's intentionally empty (petrol engines only)?
I tried to find a battery earthing strap or engine earthing strap or any earths in the engine bay but couldn't locate anything to clean (hence the jump lead test).


Planned works:
Clean and tighten battery terminals.
If no improvement, start hitting the starter with a tyre iron (if I can locate it in the engine bay).
If no improvement then buy starter solenoid refurb kit.
If no improvement then buy new battery (ouch).


The final word:
I live in Rio de Janeiro; getting original parts is (so far) suprisingly easy and relatively cheap for this model, but getting anything shipped from the UK is a pain in the arse, as is finding anyone to do some types of work (e.g. battery testing). The car is a LHD with a single battery with unknown CCA. New generic brand batteries in the supermarket (that are recommended for pickups) are just marked as 65Ah, with no mention of CCA.

Many thanks in advance for suggestions from minds wiser than mine (that doesn't really restrict things too much) and again, what a great forum,
Jon.

[Ptarmigan]

Update on progress

OK just a small update to say that after cleaning the battery terminals, all connectors and cleaning the battery to chassis earth strap, there is no change.

One strange thing: the battery to chassis connection is two cables going to the same hold in the chassis. That doesn't seem right to me so I think I'll move one cable to another location a few inches away where there seems to be an existing hole anyway.

Any tips or pointers gratefully received :-)
Jon

[MattF]

I'd think the starter contacts may be your culprit, by the sounds of it. With regards to the twin cables to one point, that's probably just due to thin cable being used. They've likely doubled up the cables to make the current capacity suitable.

[Ptarmigan]

Hitting the starter motor.

Matt, thanks for your input. Well after sitting outside the petrol station with the kids, chewing McBurgers with the radio and (oops) the ignition on and the key in the glow-plug position for 30 minutes on Sunday, the beast decided to refuse to start.

The very nice man from the petrol station appeared and offered to sell us a battery, then agreed to open the package of a new one and give us a jump for free. Strangely it didn't work at all, no change whatsoever. No change that is until we got a metal stick and started to tap the starter (via the LHS wheel arch), at which point it started perfectly.

So basically it seems the starter motor contacts are on the way out but somehow it's more susceptible to the problem when the battery is not 100% full.

I shall send en email to Roughtrax and see what they suggest....

Matt cheers again for the additional pointer.
Jon

[MattF]

There is an alternative to replacing the contacts in the starter if you have any problems getting hold of them.

http://www.toyotasurf.asn.au/forum/v...c.php?p=147927

I think that's the correct link.

[Ptarmigan]

Push-To-Start for your Surf

Matt,

Awesome link; many thanks. A really nice backup option, although did you see the size of the button that ends up in the glove box!? As the truck is mostly starting at the moment, I suspect it will be about another month before I`ve got round to making the repair, then will advise which option I implemented.

Cheers,
Jon.

There is an alternative to replacing the contacts in the starter if you have any problems getting hold of them.

http://www.toyotasurf.asn.au/forum/v...c.php?p=147927

I think that's the correct link.

[Albannach]

Ignition switch?

[Ptarmigan]

off to the auto-electrician

Thanks for all the help and advice. I`ve finally bitten the bullet and shall be at the auto-electrician shortly. After taking off the plastic shroud, the ignition system doesn`t have any obvious places to stick a probe into and all the wiring looks quite neat and "stock". I`ve fitted the roughtrax starter kit cleaned the battery and earths, bought new battery, checked all the fuses etc and now the charging circuit seems to be acting up (unable to give more than 12.5V at the battery in very hot weather, regardless of revs) so am also suspecting that battery is going flat due to a dodgy alternator / regulator.

Once I`ve got some more news and real facts to post then I will try to add them back to the forum on the correct threads so that people can find them in the future, instead of mashing them all together.

One thing that is perhaps worth mentioning is that, despite having slightly wonky electrics, the truck is seemingly unstoppable in our recent flash flooding and mud. One very good point for this vehicle is the totally "mechanical" diesel engine with no ECU etc. The number of poor sods with broken down cars I`ve driven past...

Thanks again,
Jon

[Ptarmigan]

overheated bearings in starter motor

OK folks,
I'm back for another installment!

If we ignore my rant, what I hope someone might gain from this post is that:
under high temperatures the starter motor itself can start to seize due to failing or improperly lubricated bearings.

So after visiting two auto-electricians I got the following changes:
1) After fitting the Roughtrax kit, the solenoid plunger apparently doesn`t seem to fit; it is about 1/2" too long. However, the new contacts did fit and the old ones were quite worn out.
2) The truck was starting reasonably nicely, except when hot, then sounding like some huge drag on the motor or starter or a very shitty battery (very slow rotations to crank or nothing at all)
3) Starter motor came off again and this time diagnosed with damaged bearings, causing huge friction when hot (caused by truck running for more than 10 minutes, especially if idling in traffic). I got 1 reconditioned bearing fitted and 1 "overhauled" since not even a recon part was available.
4) Truck now has no problem starting when hot, and worked flawlessly for 1 day, then started to make nothing more than a load click when trying to start it. After one more day, it is now impossible to start it without a push start! Now I would diagnose that as worn solenoid contacts but I just changed the damned things so what the heck is that all about!

So basically a hugely annoying experience so far and I`m close to buying a complete new starter motor from Roughtrax, except that I`m afraid to buy it, ship it and then find out it is somehow an incompatible part. I mean, for example, why doesn`t the damned solenoid in my starter motor repair kit fit? If I can get the wrong solenoid maybe I`ll get totally the wrong starter motor!

To make matters worse, neither sparky can tell me why, even when everything else was perfect, I almost always need 2 or more attempts at turning the key to make anything happen. They both blamed the ignition but no specifics to explain why or what.
To add insult to injury the dipped beam of my brand new H4 bulbs have deicded to stop working; the relay clicks on and off and gives me a nice electric shock, but no dipped beack now; yay :-S

Gah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jon.

Should I just resort to something like this ?:
http://www.toyotasurf.asn.au/forum/v...c.php?p=147927

[Ptarmigan]

***nudge***

I`m hoping that someone has still got ideas about why the solenoid should be the wrong size or still get clicks even when I have brand new contacts?

[TonyN]

Odd one, the 2.8 is just a bored out 2.4. A LN130 Starter should fit, as should the repair kits.

Maybe someone in the past has fitted a older smaller starter off something else.

But like you say tricky to get something sent all that way.

Can you get even a 2.4 pickup starter where you are? those trucks are everywhere and it should fit! lol.

starter motor for 2.4 & 2.8cc Diesels with single or twin batteries. This is a new smaller High Torque, gear reduction starter designed for the diesel 2L and 2LT. Fantastic value. Also fits YN65, LN65, LN130, LN105, LN106 & LN107 models.

from R/T site, so the same starter covers the whole 2L/3L engine range.

[Ptarmigan]

Hi Tony,

Getting a used starter is just going to cost a lot of money, since used parts are really expensive here. Sending something from the UK, there is sort of a 2kg limit on weight (it gets a lot more expensive after that) but still might be worth it.

I can't say what the problem is still as I've hardly used the truck recently so all I can say is thanks for the pointers once again and will advise the forum once I find a solution.

Cheers,
Jon

Odd one, the 2.8 is just a bored out 2.4. A LN130 Starter should fit, as should the repair kits.

Maybe someone in the past has fitted a older smaller starter off something else.

But like you say tricky to get something sent all that way.

Can you get even a 2.4 pickup starter where you are? those trucks are everywhere and it should fit! lol.



from R/T site, so the same starter covers the whole 2L/3L engine range.

[Growler]

Hi have you redone all the earth straps, checked battery connections etc, and what condition is the old plunger/solenoid in.

[Ptarmigan]

Low voltage alternator charging output due to loose belts

Hey folks,

So I'm back in Brazil for a few days so here is the next update.

Starter moter: I bit the bullet and brought a complete brand new one from RoughTrax with me, so lets see if it fits and how it performs. I will possibly have time to fit it tomorrow.

Alternator output; what I discovered after some more poking is that after the head rebuild, the alternator belts (both of them as they use the same tensioning system) were loose as f**k and so no wonder the alternator was putting out less than a militant feminist. A quick adjustment of the alternator position has caused a nice improvement in output (touching 14V sometimes, averaging 13.5V and occasionally down to 12.5V) so overall I'd say things are pretty close to "fixed".

Will update again once the starter motor is swapped.

Cheers,
Jon