Building Myself a Speaker cabinet.

[wishbone]

A horn has nothing to do with a sub, as you well know. I brought horns and electrostats up as an example of speakers that play loud with no visible diaphragm movement, hence low distortion etc.

Read the whole thread through when you're sober. There's no goalpost moving from me. All I suggested was that the OP sell his speakers and buy something more appropriate for his application. I also corrected an error by Nero regarding impedances.

""No, you're either referring to I.C.E, or you're referring to true audio equipment. You can't keep changing the goalposts to suit your point. Why would a discussion about large compression units be relevant to a space limited application?""


You decided I was talking about I.C.E or true audio. I was just talking distortion .



Rob.

[nero279]

I would be the first to admit that my knowledge of home audio systems wasn't great and I have no idea how horns work, but that's not to say I haven't heard them. electrostats I have never knowingly come across and wouldn't have a clue if I did. My installation experience has been entirely in cars, where I have always tried to keep the impedance to 4 ohms.

if I was going to get involved in the discussions about home audio i'd be lost. PA, I run a small portable system at home, which I run my guitar(s) and bass through. and yes the speaker cabs do contain horns but as far as i'm concerned I plug the lead in the back of the cab and plug the other end of the lead into the powered mixer they run off.

The church where I do a lot of my youthwork aswell as playing in a band there, has a very good permanently installed PA system which we use, but again it's already set up, we plug in and turn on the desk and the power amps, set our levels and that's as far as it goes for us. Any technical problems are taken onboard by our electricians and sound engineers. I know how to use the desk and the amps and get a good sound, but I don't know what is going on inside the speakers. but can be pretty certain that at least the front 4 speakers probably contain horns aswell as cones.

[MattF]

Read the whole thread through when you're sober.

Do not make assumptions. I have made none. That is a minor courtesy you might have the decency to return.

Right then, if this pleases you more. You have befuddled a fairly straight forward question to the point of almost non comprehension. If they knew the ins and outs, they wouldn't ask advice to start with. Beleaguering them with irrelevant information is completely useless. And no matter how well you may understand your own thoughts and avenues, this thread has reached the point of almost being useless for it's initial purpose. And yes, I still do say you have constantly adapted the boundaries of the discussion. Like it or lump it. I couldn't give a monkeys whether you're bothered or not. I'm not. I was initially, however, trying to at least make the thread usable again. Obviously, that is not going to happen, so I'm not going to entertain this thread any further.

[wishbone]

You assumed I was talking about horns and electrostats within a car environment for a start. There's one assumption you made.

You haven't posted any advice to the original poster, or given me an example of how I've moved goalposts. I simply suggested that the original poster should sell his speakers on and buy something more suited to his application, and corrected an error by Nero.

If you're 'befuddled' by my posts then you need to do some research on the subject. However, you said you understand me so where's the problem ?

Again, read the thread through from the beginning and it won't be so difficult.

Rob.

[wishbone]

I would say all the info I have posted wrt subwoofers / amps is completely relevant to the question. How about you MattF ? Anything useful ?

Rob.

[nero279]

TO THE ORIGINAL POSTER:

I am well aware that this thread has, like matt said, gone past it's useful lifespan. if you would like more advice please feel free to email me from my user profile page. if I can't answer any further questions you have, I know someone who can, he is a qualified auto-electrician and audio installer, and I will ask him to look over any further advice/answers I give you.

Sorry the thread has descended into a quagmire of irrelevance.

[wishbone]

TO THE ORIGINAL POSTER:

I am well aware that this thread has, like matt said, gone past it's useful lifespan. if you would like more advice please feel free to email me from my user profile page. if I can't answer any further questions you have, I know someone who can, he is a qualified auto-electrician and audio installer, and I will ask him to look over any further advice/answers I give you.

Sorry the thread has descended into a quagmire of irrelevance.

^ not very christian like.

If it's the same guy who told him to use 2 x 10's with a 12" without any xo's then be very wary

Sorry, thats probably irrelevant

Rob.

[wishbone]

Hi Rob,

Welcome to the hilux surf forums.....

Thank god I'm not Polish or something

Rob.

[MattF]

You assumed I was talking about horns and electrostats within a car environment for a start. There's one assumption you made.

Seeing as I'm in pedantic mode, I'll humour that once more. You have made reference to car audio, P.A equipment and home theatre equipment through the course of the thread. What reason was there for initially bringing in the electrostatic speaker technology, then? Especially in the case of sub woofers, I would say that if you think that a sub that is not showing visible signs of movement is being driven correctly, then you have a vastly different idea of how an audio system should work than I. Same with mid range, though to a lesser degree. The only tonal area that should generate minimal movement from the specific sounder is the high range. And I will emphasise once more, if you will rampantly throw different technologies into the fray as points of reference, I have made no assumption.

You haven't posted any advice to the original poster, or given me an example of how I've moved goalposts. I simply suggested that the original poster should sell his speakers on and buy something more suited to his application, and corrected an error by Nero.

If you're 'befuddled' by my posts then you need to do some research on the subject. However, you said you understand me so where's the problem ?

I never said that I was befuddled. I said that you had befuddled the thread. I'll admit, you have posted some useful information, but the usability of the thread went way off track a while ago. I'll not digress further on this specific point.

I would say all the info I have posted wrt subwoofers / amps is completely relevant to the question. How about you MattF ? Anything useful ?

Yes. For starters, suggesting that they use amplifiers with an output rating twice that of the speakers is folly. The speakers and amplifier should be matched. If the equipment is suitable for the task, they have no need for that excess to prevent distortion. An amplifier and speakers should be chosen with an excess to that which is required, but should be matched. If they wish to puncture their ear drums or blow out their windows, that is upto them, but do not advise them to take a course which requires extra protection circuitry to be incorporated without at least making mention of such. Also, relying on the thermal cutout circuitry of any amplifier is another folly. Those can and do fail. Burnups are not something that they will necessarily appreciate when the protection circuits go t1ts up.

Plus, just to be completely pedantic, any vehicular install is a space limited application. And I will point out once more, I have no interest in discussing audio equipment further. I hate working on the stuff, and have even less interest in the setup of the equipment.

[MattF]

Welcome to the hilux surf forums.....

Thank god I'm not Polish or something

Quite the contrary. Welcome and have fun. However, the basic point of all this has been, keep it simple. You know perfectly well what you are talking about. That is the problem. Very few other people will. As much as I may be extremely finnicky when trying to get a point across, my intent is never to put someone on the spot. If you look at other posts in the other tech sections, you will get an idea of what I mean. Advanced level answers are rarely needed nor totally understood.

Anyhow, you were the only one available to argue with.

[Apache]

Either that, or all the constant quoting/requoting of text has just bored the $hit out of me so much that I couldn't be arsed to try and read it any further.

Matt mate, what are you trying to say? Stop beating around the bush and just say what you mean!

BTW, piezo technology has been eclipsed by Pizza technology. Ever heard a horn loaded 'mighty meaty'?

I know I'm getting further from the original posters request, but quoting electrostatic speakers as lower distortion than conventional coil speakers isn't strictly true. At low frequencies, they struggle due to their inate inefficiency at moving large quantities of air. Large air movement, be that due to cone displacement or area is necessary. ES work well at mid and high freq where their very low mass acheives better transient response. ES speakers most certainly do move, and visibly if they are producing low frequencies. They cant do it otherwise!

As someone stated, piezo drivers also have very low mass, though due to low output generally require horn loading for efficiency and are only suitable for HF.

Its a while since I've been 'in the game' now (left A&R in 1986!) so some of my thoughts might be slightly out of date, though speaker technology seems evolutionary. Development of ligher, stiffer cones - better surround materials etc.

As a last word, proper fidelity is nigh on impossible to acheive in a car because of the shape and size of the space, the seemingly random distribution of speakers in that space, and the position of the listener. Thats not to say you cant acheive a pleasant noise, but thats all it will be.

The aim of most ICE experts and enthusiasts seems to be volume, and bass, and bass... oh, and bass. (and neons)

[wishbone]

Why oh why did I wake up this morning and look at this thread?

I only brought up examples of pa stuff and hifi stuff as examples of what other sound people do. I never said you should use an amp of twice the speakers ratings, just stated that is what a lot of pa guys do to stop amp clipping being in the equation. You don't need extra limiters etc btw, just set the gains on the amp right. If you look back through the thread I said 'if you have a 4 ohm speaker that wants 200 watts, buy an amp that delivers 200w into 4ohms. We're at least on agreement there Matt) The Martin Logans I alluded to earlier cross to a cone speaker in the bass region, to stop the panel from being over driven. Due to using a crossover the panels never receive low frequencies. The old school boys who used Quad esl57's used to use 2 speakers per side to reduce distortion. Search for 'stacked' quads 57's. The reason they don't move much is that the panels are huge compared to conventional drivers, so have to move a tiny bit to displace the same amout of air as a cone driver.



I only brought up this 'non car stuff' as examples of stuff with low distortion. Again, if you have never heard low distortion speakers then you will not know how bad most stuff sounds. Thats hifi bookshelves as well as car stuff, and indeed pa stuff. I was just talking audio. (a subject that I have at least some passion for).

btw I never said I thought that a moving speaker was distorting. I said some audiophiles say that.... heres a pic of stacked esl57's. They're not small and they don't do bass.



Right time to get the egg n'bacon sarnies on.

Rob.

[Apache]

Why oh why did I wake up this morning and look at this thread?

I only brought up examples of pa stuff and hifi stuff as examples of what other sound people do. I never said you should use an amp of twice the speakers ratings, just stated that is what a lot of pa guys do to stop amp clipping being in the equation. You don't need extra limiters etc btw, just set the gains on the amp right. If you look back through the thread I said 'if you have a 4 ohm speaker that wants 200 watts, buy an amp that delivers 200w into 4ohms. We're at least on agreement there Matt) The Martin Logans I alluded to earlier cross to a cone speaker in the bass region, to stop the panel from being over driven. Due to using a crossover the panels never receive low frequencies. The old school boys who used Quad esl57's used to use 2 speakers per side to reduce distortion. Search for 'stacked' quads 57's. The reason they don't move much is that the panels are huge compared to conventional drivers, so have to move a tiny bit to displace the same amout of air as a cone driver.



I only brought up this 'non car stuff' as examples of stuff with low distortion. Again, if you have never heard low distortion speakers then you will not know how bad most stuff sounds. Thats hifi bookshelves as well as car stuff, and indeed pa stuff. I was just talking audio. (a subject that I have at least some passion for).

btw I never said I thought that a moving speaker was distorting. I said some audiophiles say that.... heres a pic of stacked esl57's. They're not small and they don't do bass.



Right time to get the egg n'bacon sarnies on.

Rob.

Not sure why you seem to be arguing again? Not sure anyone disagreed that you can use an amp with a paper output far higher than the speaker rated power. Music never gets anywhere near an RMS value, so you'd probably be safe feeding - say - 300w of music into a speaker rated at 150wrms.

Not sure why you brought up 'cone speakers distort' quote from audiophiles if you didn't think the quote held water either.

ES spealers distort in other ways. Imagery for one. Stacked ES speakers would be even worse in this respect. It may not be transient distortion (at which ES are famously good) but imagery blurring is distortion of the original signal. For example, to me, imagery is more important than thundering bass so I use small speakers with minimal front baffle.

RIGHT - NO MORE ARGUMENTS ON THIS THREAD UNTIL YOU STICK SOME MONEY IN THE MAC CHALLENGE ACCOUNT!!!

[Razorhoof]

LOL!!!!!! Guys guys guys guys guys!!!!!

Sorry I started an e-war

OK, this is what I have done so far from listening to your advice. I went to Halfords yesterday and swapped my Stereo unit for the next model up (last years model but same price as the one I bought originally). This new model has pre-outs for the amp and the Halfords guy fitted all the cables he needed to power the amp when I fnally have it there. The guy fitted it no problems, I was sat in the car with him while he did it and he did a great job of putting the panels back on etc. He also fitted two new Panasonic speakers in the dash to replace the ones that were in there as they distorted far too early and sounded 'thin'.

So, now I have used up two of the 4 x 45 watt outputs of the stereo. The other two outputs are going to be hooked up to my 2 x 35 watt speakers that I ripped from my Laney speaker cabinet. The lad who fitted my stereo was really sound. Dead chatty and offered me loads of advice, the conclusion is that I can have these speakers in my car before too long - just need my Dad to make the cabinets for them first :o) and get someone to hook the amp up to my battery. The Halfords guy said that the amp I have bought is perfectly fine for the 15 inch 200 wat bass speaker if I bridge the two channels and that's good enough for me. He even fitted my speakers at no extra fitting charge. So I got an hours work out of him for £10.

I will keep you posted. High on Fire's first album Art of Self Defense will never sound so good :o).

Thanks guys. Anyone got a spare passenger side rear seat belt to sell?

J.

[wishbone]

Link to the mac challenge?

Hell I've got to drop 1200 on a head for a vehicle I've just bought, whats a bit more ?

I was answering questions from MattF.

Its funny that you tell me no more arguments and then start arguing against esl's... So I have to pay to answer your points? I like the style. Tell you what, If you send me some cash you can answer this:

Just because I stated that 'some audiophiles' say that a moving speaker is distorting doesn't mean that I agree or disagree with what they say. I was giving some info that can be weighed up by whoever reads it.

For the record I feel that once a midbass driver, such as in a bookshelf speaker is bouncing about to the music it is already in a bad way.That much is pretty obvious. Add to that the porting of said speaker (with the problems of the driver unloading below the ports frequency), and the complete failure of the tweeter to match the mids dispertion through its range and you're left with a speaker that images well, um, uniquely.. Lots of people love the 'semi point source' feeling of a 2 way bookshelf. I've heard many and my mates stats completely blow them away, dodgy beaming / blurring etc included(if any - I heard none on a pair of £15000 Martin Logans?). In fact its probably the beaming of the tweeter on your 2 ways that give it the imagery you like. Its the only part of the speakers output that won't be affected by room reflections, giving you that pin point feeling. Dipole Esl's and horns if designed well will have a dispertion pattern that is more stable through more of the audio range. Admittedly the esl panel will start to beam in the top end, and horns will become uni-directional in the lower bass. Pick your poison. Small baffles on bookshelves have their own problems. You lose efficiency from baffle step at a far higher frequency for a start. Hows a 6dB loss sound on an already low efficiency speaker? Not too great is the answer. A bigger baffle will shift this loss lower in frequency. If you go for a 3 way you can keep your mid outputting 6dB more with a larger baffle, then use a larger higher sensitivity bass driver to cope with the loss. You can save the baffle step loss by pushing the small bookshelves back against a wall, but the you get the early reflection problems instead - blurring / smearing. back to the start.


Totally off topic now, but hey I didn't bring up the problems of esl's, you did.