Starting from cold

[garyandbeth]

Hi, i am a very new surfer - baught my first 3rd gen about a month ago and am very happy with it havin loads of fun. i do however have a niggling problem which is obviously going to land me in the messy stuff pretty soon. After its been left standing for more than about 12 hours, when I try to start it it turns over very slowly indeed as if the batteries are dead. It never seems to start first time due to this problem and i resort to turning the ignition on and off a few times to make sure the glow plus are red hot before the second attempt for which it immediately fires up. When warm or only left for a few hours it turns over really quick and starts after about 4-5 compression strokes. The batteries are less than a year old and am wondering if anything is draining the batteries (do they have a common problem?). if anyone else has had this problem or if there's a top notch surf expert out there could you please shed some light on this situation for me?? Last thing I want is to be running late for work one day and have it not start!! Cheers , Gary.

[BUSHWHACKER]

Check that your alternator belt/s is/are not too slack. (not sure wether there are one or two belts on the 3rd gen) secondly, take it to an auto electrician to do an output test on the alternator.

[Uplander]

Starting problem

Hi,
There could be a few things on top of what our friend has advised - not for one moment suggestin he's wrong - he aint - but internet diagnosis - hit an miss stuff at best....all we can suggest is "likely suspects" YOU sort it !
If, as you say, the batteries are fairly new, so what, they can still be discharged.. Check out the electrical connections first especially the earths ! disconnect and clean them down to bare shiny metal, and re tighten them tight.
The batteries should be checked with a load on them, most garages will have a bit of kit for this test..
There could be an injector / or two which are fouled.
There could be a thermostatic sensor fault (ie your engine is told it is hot when it aint )
The injection pump timing could be slightly out of kilter.
Your engine could have poor compression - only a garage with diesel test kit will be able to check this..
Another possibility is that the fuelling side is contaminated...ie drain fuel filter of any water, and consider a new fuel filter element.

It really is a question of going thru the list of possibilities and crossing them off..some things you will be able to do yourself, hope you find it quickish poor weather forecast from tomorrow onwards apparently...off to get some more firewood.

Peter

[jaky cakes]

I have a very similar problem with mine - which is due to the ambient temperature. Below 2-3'c the engine turns very slowly, as if the batteries are flat. Above 5'c the engine starts first click without problems.
On a cold start I simply turn the ignition to on and hold it for 5 seconds or so then off. i repeat this again and then finally crank the engine. - works every time.
Could be and early warning or indication that the batteries are on the way out - or just the norm for car batteries??

[garyandbeth]

Thanks for your replies. The alternator is charging correctly belt is good, and after reading all the old threads on here I think it might be the cheap batteries that the previous owner put on the car. they are Type 068 570CCA 's , borderline for turning over a 3.0L diesel I imagine, Especially in the cold weather we have had up here in the north east. think I will spend some dosh and get some big uns and will let you know how I get on. Cheers gary.

[Morr]

Thanks for your replies. The alternator is charging correctly belt is good, and after reading all the old threads on here I think it might be the cheap batteries that the previous owner put on the car. they are Type 068 570CCA 's , borderline for turning over a 3.0L diesel I imagine, Especially in the cold weather we have had up here in the north east. think I will spend some dosh and get some big uns and will let you know how I get on. Cheers gary.

Thats still over 1000CCA in total, which should be more than ample.

[garyandbeth]

Thats still over 1000CCA in total, which should be more than ample.

It does sound ample, but the equivalent landcruiser dual battery set up are rated as 700 CCA each at my local motor factors. would appreciate an alternative suggestion - maybe a slow/clogged up starter perhaps? any ideas morr?

[Morr]

Firstly check your battery voltage without load when cold, it should be over 12.45v, if less then there may indeed be a problem with the batteries (as you appear to have already ruled out the alternator/charging circuit) despite their age and capacity.
If the voltage is OK, proceed to check all wiring to the starter. Check the main earth to the engine. When checking wiring look for chaffing or other damage and that all connections are secure and do not appear corroded.
It takes more current/power to crank a cold engine, so any deficiency in the system could give the symptoms you describe, this includes the starter itself which is where I'd look next if all above has checked out OK.
On the starter if the solenoid plunger is worn it will result in reduced current, this is a common wear point on these starters, have a search here, its been covered thoroughly before with full details and part numbers covered too. If the contacts/plunger etc appear OK I would next look at the commutator/brushes.

[garyandbeth]

Firstly check your battery voltage without load when cold, it should be over 12.45v, if less then there may indeed be a problem with the batteries (as you appear to have already ruled out the alternator/charging circuit) despite their age and capacity.
If the voltage is OK, proceed to check all wiring to the starter. Check the main earth to the engine. When checking wiring look for chaffing or other damage and that all connections are secure and do not appear corroded.
It takes more current/power to crank a cold engine, so any deficiency in the system could give the symptoms you describe, this includes the starter itself which is where I'd look next if all above has checked out OK.
On the starter if the solenoid plunger is worn it will result in reduced current, this is a common wear point on these starters, have a search here, its been covered thoroughly before with full details and part numbers covered too. If the contacts/plunger etc appear OK I would next look at the commutator/brushes.

without it being started for nearly 24 hours, the battery voltage at the moment is 12.75V and the temperature is blinkin freezin about -4. I'm not going to bother doin more tll it warms up a touch but will defo follow these lines as they make complete sense, will keep you posted on the outcome. Cheers, Gary.

[garyandbeth]

checked the battery lines and there was one nut slightly loose - it was the one joining the two batteries together - tightened the nut and havn't had a problem since - simple task thanks guys for your advice. Gary.

[garyandbeth]

Thought I'd solved the problem......... but it has come back to haunt me. I have worked out why its been good for a little while, if I drive for about an hour a day the batteries seem to have ample recharging, but if I drive less than about 10 miles a day, the battery voltage gets lower and lower every day and this morning the voltage was 12.15 v and it really struggled to turn the engine over. Obviously it didn't start. I had to get a jump start from a small car that had a battery with 300cca 's and it spun the engine real fast - how embarassing!! I am 99% sure that I have something draining my battery - could it be my toad alarm? if not has anyone got any ideas as I am getting really annoyed with this one now!!

Could it be a leaky (electrically) alternator?

[garyandbeth]

Surf Refused To Start As Engine Was Not Turning Over Fast Enough. Just Did Some Tests On The Battery. Voltage When Ign Off Was 12.30v, Voltage When Ign On (glow Plug Relay Activated) Was 11.2v And When Cranking The Battery Voltage Went Down To 6.4v. With Two 570cca Batteries Fitted I Am Surprised At This Find As These Batteries Should Provide 570a Each For 30 Secs Before The Battery Voltage Falls Below 7.2v At 0 Deg Fahrenheit (-17 Deg C). Engine Turned Over 2-3 Times Very Slowly And Then Nothing. Battery Voltage Returned To 12.25v. Is It Possible That It Is My Starter Motor That Is At Fault And Drawing A Huge Amount Of Current Which Drops The Battery Voltage Down This Far? Anyone Got Any Further Ideas? In The Meantime I Will Charge The Batteries In The House And Teast Them Again Fully Charged!!

[TonyN]

Are you testing the battery's individually, Its not unknown to get a new duff battery, that could be dragging the other one down.

Just been out and tried our truck, 13V at rest, 12V glowplugs on and 10V cranking.

If it'll crank fast when you hook it up to another car, that should rule out problems with the starter.

Surf Refused To Start As Engine Was Not Turning Over Fast Enough. Just Did Some Tests On The Battery. Voltage When Ign Off Was 12.30v, Voltage When Ign On (glow Plug Relay Activated) Was 11.2v And When Cranking The Battery Voltage Went Down To 6.4v. With Two 570cca Batteries Fitted I Am Surprised At This Find As These Batteries Should Provide 570a Each For 30 Secs Before The Battery Voltage Falls Below 7.2v At 0 Deg Fahrenheit (-17 Deg C). Engine Turned Over 2-3 Times Very Slowly And Then Nothing. Battery Voltage Returned To 12.25v. Is It Possible That It Is My Starter Motor That Is At Fault And Drawing A Huge Amount Of Current Which Drops The Battery Voltage Down This Far? Anyone Got Any Further Ideas? In The Meantime I Will Charge The Batteries In The House And Teast Them Again Fully Charged!!

[garyandbeth]

I did isolate each battery in turn and found and the passenger side battery turned the engine over slowly on its own just as it did with two batteries, but the drivers side battery wouldn't even turn the engine over. I am charging the drivers side battery up at the moment, then the passenger side one and will test each one on its own when they are both fully charged. As you can appreciate it is difficult to convince my missus that sitting in the car for ages turning the key now and again while i fiddle under the bonnet is gonna find the problem. didn't actually get any readings for each battery - will try that later when they're fully charged!!

what I can say though is that the drivers side battery seemed to charge up very quickly on the bench and is now trickle charging at 2Amps.( my charger normally charges at 6Amps).I feel it might be a battery after all but don't want to fork out unnecessarily.

Cheers for your help, gary.

[garyandbeth]

Now I am at a loss!!!! fully re-charged both batteries, they both now sit at about 12.9V. Connected one battery and turned ign on - 11.3V - when glow plugs switch off back to about 12.8V. Cranking voltage was about 7.5 - 8.5V. Engine turned over quickly and started first time. Connected other battery, got simular readings and engine started staright away. Connected both batteries and have 12.88V IGN off, 12.3V IGN on, 10.55V when cranking. So I think I can conclude that the batteries are both ok? Now comes the long and annoying task of finding out if anything is draining the batteries. Maybe an intermittant alternator? Will keep you informed anyway.