starting issue-ongoing!

[mickey]

Sorry to run this one again, but i thought i had it nailed, and now i'm running out of steam/cash!

Recently, i had a few dodgy starts. I posted the symptoms, and the replies were helpfull. However, my description of the starting problem may have been flawed because i had my ear to the dash, and was missing the obvious clunk from a sticking starter motor..Luckilly, whilst purchasing service items from Roughtrax i'd also bought a starter repair kit, and my next door neighbour is a little bit handy with things mechanical..He removed the starter, replaced contacts and plunger and refitted..All appeared well..

Until eight days ago..Coincidence maybe, or a problem that contributed to the starter motor's downfall?

Okay..Each and every morning, i do this..Key in ignition, wait for the click, then start..(ok it's the established way, but i thought i'd assure you i was actually doing this)..What actually happens however, is giving me cause for concern..The starter will kick in just fine..But, there is a brief moment where the engine stops turning, even with the key cranked over..That "flat spot" IS brief.The motor then turns normally, but MAYBE a little slowly? (it usually starts on half a turn, and has done for four years..i really don't know what the cranking speed should be) and usually catches on the fourth or fifth cycle..It SOUNDS like the battery has died, but then it turns and fires up..and when it fires, it is a clean, smooth start.(no white smoke, and no rough running).It really is just that initial moment where all confidence surges away, because once started, it will start fine for the rest of the day..it happens first thing in the morning, and is a little reluctant if stood for eight hours at work..Leave it only an hour or so, and it'll fire on a turn with no hesitation.

On my last post, the question of "earth strap" arose, as in loose...I'm struggling to locate one? The terminals are tight, there are no dry cells and the wires that run from negative to inner wing are in fine shape, and again, tight..My radio (origional) is doing funny things..It will cut out and in for no apparent reason, and this is acompanied by a relay click..Maybe irrelevant, but no harm in mentioning it i guess..The other thing is this.The car drives fine once started, and maybe it is paranoia, but it really does sound as if i'm getting "popping" noises from underneath..My best description would be like the "tinks" that metal makes when cooling and contracting, only louder and sharper..Initially i thought it was small stones bouncing off the running boards, but it will do it whilst at standstill..i noticed that "once", maybe twice.In any case, it's a recent development..In fact, i have heard similar sounds from the alternator with the bonnet up, but couldn't say wether they've always been there..I've now got it in my mind that something may be shorting out, but that notion isn't based on anything other than rampant imagination..

Just to add..The driver's side battery is origional, the other isn't (i assume it was changed by the dealer, four or five years ago)..The batteries were tested twice, by different people (both qualified auto electricians), and pronounced healthy, although in neither case were they tested in isolation (i'm assuming this would mean dissconnecting them from eachother?). I've recently had a timing belt change at the main dealers, starter motor parts and labour, four front CV boots changed (inner and outer) for the MOT and some other bits n bobs..not a financial disaster, but i'm not now in a position to splash out on two new batteries UNLESS i can be "reasonably" confident that they are the cause (it's the fact that the first start of the day seems problematic, and subsequent starts far less so that gives me hope that battery replacement will cure my woes).

I'm not expecting a full diagnosis of course (although i wouldn't turn one down)..I'm just fishing for your thoughts.Is there anything from my post that points to one direction more than another? Ie, if it WERE batteries, the motor wouldn't turn fast enough to fire after the initial "surge"..or can two batteries, one well, one not so well..do strange things?

All input appreciated, as always.

[TonyN]

and pronounced healthy, although in neither case were they tested in isolation

without disconnecting one, you'll get an average of both. This won't help is one is duff and dragging the other down when its under load.

[Vagrant No2]

It could be that the armature is worn in the starter and a hot spot is between the brushes and the armature . Fixing the contacts may have just moved the problem to another part of a worn out starter .
Just rebuilt Angies (Mrs Sumo) starter in Bunny ( her Suzuki) everything worn . It is slow and and then fast on the starter due to the worn armature .
Once started nevr gave a problem until next day.
Try the batterys like Tony said but then you may need to fully rebuild or replace starter .
You can check for a poor earth strap with a DC volt meter . One probe on battery post (not terminal) and one probe on engine block . Crank engine and expect no more the 1v drop on meter .

[mickey]

Thanks for that Tony..I did recal reading that once, but didn't feel as if i ought mention it to the tester in case it was "a really stupid thing to say" kinda thing..I'm just going to get those batteries...Hell, with winter looming, and running on an origional, i dare say i'm probably pushing it, wether it's a battery issue or not...At least then, i can tick that off the starting problem list..

Pity you ain't coming down to Naarfuk for the offroad meet tomorrow..(don't worry, i wasn't thinking about pulling you into the engine bay for "just a quick listen" lol...playtime is playtime)..but would have been good to put a face to the name..

I will get over to Basingstoke for some "spannering" sooner or later..even if it's spacers and mild-ish lift..$$$$$$ glitches keep draining my toy fund!

[mickey]

Sorry Vagrant..you weren't there when i replied to Tony.. ..I hope i don't have to replace the starter motor, but well, if needs must...iI did notice Roughtrax sell them, so i guess that's something..I'd not be confident in doing that electrical test, but i dare say my neighbour would, so i'll have a word..The starter bench tested ok, but i guess that means little? Things wear out i suppose..I keep forgetting the ole girl is getting on in years..

Ta for the input.

[davemaxx]

you will not like this so brace you'r self for the worst. count to ten and then read on.

i had a problem like yours on a little rover 400 - new shape, it turned out to be hydralic lock up, either the head gasket or head had gone, it would bearly crank over but would always start when it did turn a minimum of three or four revs and it would run, it never showed any blue smoke or steam and it stayed like this for 2 years befor it finally filled the world with white smoke and locked up compleatly. i never even noticed water or oil loss.

during the hours left standing through out the night, oil and water or one or the other would seep into a combustion chamber, so when i tried to crank it over in the morning there would be that extra bit of resistance preasure wise for a split second and then anouther cylinder would fire up and the problem had gone until the next day or a few days time or even a week, i bought a new battery thinking it was a power amperage issue but this didn't cure things.

i would suggest when you have got a clear day, (the night befor take it on a good run, plenty of heat and preasure) dont start the engin the next morning and firstly take out the glow plugs and get a freind to start the engin while you are standing over the glow plug holes and see if anything squirts out.

[mickey]

Thanks Dave! Actually, it was a thought that had crossed my mind too, and i think (semi-jokingly) i even suggested that on my origional post..How ironic would THAT be?

Ok..To be fair, i've not really been experimenting with the car..It starts in the morning, gets me to work, and back..I try to ignore the rest..My reasoning being, if i play around with it too much, i'll drain the battery if it is indeed a battery related issue..By the same token, i resist the temptation to fire it up in my lunchbreak, just in case i take more out of an ailing battery than i can reasonably put back in..The starting fine whilst hot theory comes from short trips at the weekend..

Back to your suggestion..ouch! There wasn't much i could do yesterday, as the car had been used, and the engine was still warm...What i did this morning however, was this; My immobiliser is one of those little gizmos that you touch the end of with a black aaa battery sized thingy that hangs off the key fob..until you touch it, a little red light flashes, the glow plug light doesn't illuminate on the dash and although the motor will crank, i believe the fuel pump is de-activated..

My reasoning was (and i've not been tempted to try before now, lest i kill the batteries) IF one cylinder had coolant in it, then turning the engine without first de-activating the immobiliser should have the same effect? Only i'd have longer to listen for any strange noises..IE, the coolant won't compress, giving the "lock up" you described..On doing this however, the engine turned without hesitation! It turned and turned and sounded strong and healthy? Then i started it, and it was all up and down and erratic again, but, as per usual, it did fire..cleanly, without smoke or any rough idle..HMMM..I turned it off (something i never do, because getting it running is a relief, and getting it hot, is usually curative, for a few hours at least)..If there had been coolant in a cylinder, it surely would have emptied on dead cranking the motor? If not, the forty second run would have cleared it right?

Now for the strange bit..Assuming the cylinder couldn't refill in a short time without dramatic symptoms,ie obvious coolant loss (my car does lose a little over time, but i DO have a radiator leak, a small one, touch wood)..and i've never noticed steam (i recently thrashed it en-route to an MOT bay, in an attempt to clear smoke..it passed the emissions with flying colours, and the tester gave it some harsh revs.there was very little black smoke, no white)..When i tried starting it again, it still struggled..so i GUESS it isn't hydro-lock?..but does appear to be a cold start issue..I'd be more confident it was battery related, but now i really cannot fathom why it turned so sweetly without de-activating the immobiliser? Would the load on the starter motor be so much less? I can't see how it would..

I'll get some batteries in the week..It's going to let me down bad..I'm glad i got it running this morning as i'd got my heart set on seeing the boys doing there thing at the Norfolk offroad day..So, setting off in twenty minutes!

Thanks for your thoughts Dave..finger's crossed it isn't the head though.

[davemaxx]

easy test, - are the lights dim first thing in the morning and then brighten on start up.

don't know the price of two new batteries, but you could try and get a few from the s$$$$-yard, small ones are usually a fiver and big uns a tenner,

i sincerly hope you havent got a cylinder head problem because it worries us all with the same motor.

i don't know how much water or oil would need to be in a combustion chamber to cause lock up, but you also know you are loosing water from the rad, so that needs repairing. that little rover i had behaved like you describe you truck for 2 years and i only toped the water up by about a cup full a month and the oil was allways perfect, i contrabuted to the head finally going by transporting tons of slabs and concreat blocks in it, it used to be compleatly bottemed out and handeled like a go-kart around corners.

i would suggest that because you need a new rad, you could try some of that sealent stuff called k-seal block sealer, there are a few threads about it and its on sale on ebay, if the problem goes away you know the head or gaskets gon (if it works) then you can flush it all out during the new rad and head work.

[mickey]

Ok fellas, just to bring the curtain down on this-un (hopefully)..it would appear the batteries, or maybe one bringing t'other with it were the problem..They passed away quietly in the early hours of Saturday..

Not QUITE resolved, as my neighbour bought two home from work, but the driver's side battery (to get a left and right, he had to get two slightly different ones) had higher cell caps (dunno if thats the right term, but hey ho) which meant the mounting bracket wouldn't reach over..

We replaced one, and the other will be on Friday..I know, the duff one might bring down the good one..I don't want to hear it! It is starting amazingly well at the moment thank you ..They were £57:00 each by the way..Unusually (in my experience) Toyota UK were very unhelpfull on this issue, but then again, it's probably unfair to hold an entire dealership responsible for the pig headed attitude of an individual..

Ta for all your input..Hopefully the problem will be fixed now.