head probs on a 3 ltr?

[mickey]

sorry to start a new thread,could be seen as a continuation of my previous,but coming from a different angle this time...been reading some threads,and gather that the head on a 3 ltr can crack,but less likely than on its 2.4 counterpart...why do i think i've got a head prob,well,dunno really,except for this....when i changed the rad a couple or months ago,i filled up the coolant,fired the engine and wow,my toyota red long life expensive brew was gushing out of the top.didn't think too much about it at the time,but researching here,it now seems this is bad,as it indicates pressure in the cooling system,ie exhaust fumes from a gasket leak or cracked head....so,whats the story..no fluid loss,no bubbling in the header,no white smoke or overheating...thats the good news.the bad,well,my engine noise thread gives the details,but in short,i've got a droning,throaty engine noise which sounds like an exhaust blow.is this consistent with a cracked head?..not heard a change in engine note mentioned before....car has new radiator and thermostat.never overheated,just replaced rad as a precaution as it had a couple of weeping pinprick holes in the top.it did lose a little oil,about 4 or 5 mm on the dipstick,then it came back a few days later.of course someone may have borrowed it,but seriously,what the hell could cause that.it wasn't my imagination,it really did/does rise and fall........no loss of power,oil pressure good,temp good,no smoke,white or blue,some black when i whip it....if its the head,does marky do them,if so,how much and how long.cheers

[TonyN]

sorry to start a new thread,could be seen as a continuation of my previous,but coming from a different angle this time...been reading some threads,and gather that the head on a 3 ltr can crack,but less likely than on its 2.4 counterpart...why do i think i've got a head prob,well,dunno really,except for this....when i changed the rad a couple or months ago,i filled up the coolant,fired the engine and wow,my toyota red long life expensive brew was gushing out of the top.didn't think too much about it at the time,but researching here,it now seems this is bad,as it indicates pressure in the cooling system,ie exhaust fumes from a gasket leak or cracked head....so,whats the story..no fluid loss,no bubbling in the header,no white smoke or overheating...thats the good news.the bad,well,my engine noise thread gives the details,but in short,i've got a droning,throaty engine noise which sounds like an exhaust blow.is this consistent with a cracked head?..not heard a change in engine note mentioned before....car has new radiator and thermostat.never overheated,just replaced rad as a precaution as it had a couple of weeping pinprick holes in the top.it did lose a little oil,about 4 or 5 mm on the dipstick,then it came back a few days later.of course someone may have borrowed it,but seriously,what the hell could cause that.it wasn't my imagination,it really did/does rise and fall........no loss of power,oil pressure good,temp good,no smoke,white or blue,some black when i whip it....if its the head,does marky do them,if so,how much and how long.cheers

It may be the gasket, they can fail on any engine. Best get the cooling system pressure tested, its the only way to tell. You don't wanna take the head off for no reason.

Engine noise won't have anything to do with a cracked head/gasket.

Good chance it just had an airlock after you refilled in.

oil level will change a little if check it hot just afer stopping, or let ot sit over night, after the oil has all drained in to the sump from inside the engine.

[mickey]

thanks tony..interesting that the noise isn't a head prob indication,i was a bit concearned...as for the oil,well i check it routinely,first thing in the morning,after it has been out on the drive overnight...it always,without fail,measured level with the full mark,then one day it had dropped by 4 mm,ok,not much i know,but it went somewhere in a hurry.then 3 days later,wallop,it was back.....i'm gonna have to get a pressure test aint i?..my big concearn was,reading through the various threads,that when gasket failure was suspected,it usually turned out that the head was cracked......i owned a nissan one,the gaskets were assumed to have leaked on that,it wasn't the cause,it was a pipe that had split,but the point was,the mechanic said he would have to skim the head to gaurantee the repair,but didn't i read somewhere jap heads shouldn't be skimmed?

[boxertwin]

3.0 head

Mickey,

I think Tony is right. The rising coolant is likely to have been an airlock escaping on start up. You're motor displays no other symptoms associated with a damaged head. To put you're mind at rest, a pressure check will confirm either way. They are quick and cheap.

The Nissan head was probably an alloy one. Slight overheating can cause the head to warp. This will require a skim to bring the head back flat and true, allowing the new gasket to seal correctly. Surf heads being cast iron are extremely unlikely to warp.

phil

[mickey]

boxertwin,thanks for that,yes,i agree,the only way to get the true picture,is to test the system,i will get that done as soon as....oh dear,i was told that the head on the kzte was alloy,with a cast block.......started her up from cold this morning,rad cap off.didn't gush out like last time,just bits jumping out of the filler,2 or 3 inches.i mean,the fluid was right at the top,so dunno if it was bubbling or vibration.my beast does shake a bit on tickover.looked in the expansion bottle,no bubbles,i made sure the pipe was under the coolant.even when i blocked the overflow pipe,the coolant stayed smooth as silk...maybe i've just got surf forum browsers panic syndrome,my blood pressure has been up too this week.....so what have we got,noisy droning engine with reverbaration in footwell,coolant leaping out of the radiator filler,yep,i'm panicking.....trouble is,i've been taken to the cleaners by mechanics in the past,and now am reluctant to entrust anyone with my vehicle,i have to sort my head out first,then the car's...i know,i wont drive it again,then i can pretend all is well.....oh,and when i took the dipstick out,i heard noises,like flowing water,maybe it was oil?..ah no,it might have been water after all,strong engines?.i've had stronger mints.

[Mart]

Looks like I've got the same prob with mine. Went for run up the M40 (140miles round trip @ 70-80). Anyway when I got home I saw water coming from the front. Popped bonnet and found foam in the expansion tank. Lost quite a bit from the tank where it had been forced out.



As a matter of course I always monitor the temp gauge, which never moved off the normal position. The heater was always hot throughout the journey (would have noticed if it had gone cold cause it been freezing out). The foam is due to the rad weld I have in the coolant to stop the odd little pin prick in the rad top leaking (could be that the gasket has been letting by all this time causing the rad leaks. Had a new core just recently too).



Guys at work reckon it’s a blown head gasket causing the coolant loss and foaming. Given its never happened before and you always get alot of foaming/coolant loss once engine is running normal temp I would agree.



Spoken to my local surf garage and he agrees and will do the whole job Inc labour, head skim and gasket for £450..

What do you think ? Gasket ? Head ? And skim or not ? Only £30 for the skim!?

Any advice would be welcome.

Cheers

[mickey]

eerm, still not done the compression test, because, after posting on scuddy's thread, due to him having had a similar problem in the past, he advised that i should clean the induction system pipes, as it solved his reverberation. then i got to thinking, well, i replaced the airfilter, but, with an identical one, as i bought two at the same time. ordered a filter from another supplier, fitted it and bingo, the reverbaration did seem less.still sounds a little raspy, but quieter.........now, this morning, go to turn her over, and it wouldn't fire. the batteries were throwing it over just fine, it wasn't even trying to catch. did this eight or so times, making sure the plugs were well up on temperature, but nowt.....rings the AA....turn it over,still dead for several spins, then fires, runs sweet...the very nice man checks batteries, he is impressed. checks glowplugs, very impressed...ok, well,although it wasn't easy to tell, he did notice that the engine sounded as if a cylinder was low on compression turing the non productive turning of the engine, then she caught, so end of that. had it been glowplugs, it would have been running rough, sounds feasable enough. turned it over a few times again,this time without arming the immobaliser, with my system she'll spin without firing. sounded consistent, whereas with the initial attempt she was flatting out every now and then. the explanation being that the oil would now be sealing the engine, allowing the compression to build..coincidently, he owned a 3 ltr 4 runner that blew a head..and his freind had a landcruiser with the same engine, that went too..so, back to the compression test, which, if i can start it tomorrow, i'll get done by the weekend.....still not smoking, used no water, oil still fluctuating but not dropping below its previous record low, which was 5 mm on the dipstick..doesn't knock on start and less than 50000 uk mileage, no overheating yet, no bubbles, ....i'll let you knowthe results when they come in....looking at the worse, any idea how much for a 3 ltre head, where from and.....no, maybe i'll ring stevo

[TonyN]

, he did notice that the engine sounded as if a cylinder was low on compression turing the non productive turning of the engine, then she caught, so end of that. had it been glowplugs, it would have been running rough, sounds feasable enough. turned it over a few times again,this time without arming the immobaliser,

I'd check the timing belt hasn't jumped a tooth, or be stretched, or the tensioner not working properly. It could be the cause of your noise, and a slightly open valve will ruin your compression.

[TonyN]

Guys at work reckon it’s a blown head gasket causing the coolant loss and foaming. Given its never happened before and you always get alot of foaming/coolant loss once engine is running normal temp I would agree.

Spoken to my local surf garage and he agrees and will do the whole job Inc labour, head skim and gasket for £450..

What do you think ? Gasket ? Head ? And skim or not ? Only £30 for the skim!?

Any advice would be welcome.

Cheers

The price isn't excessive, its getting on for £150 for the Head gasket and head set from Toyota, which I'd strongly recommoned getting.

I'd only skim it if it really needs it, and then get the thinnest head gasket if you do. no really any need to increase the compression to much on a deisel motor, they have plenty!

Most important is to make sure the block deck and head are flat.

If its any encouragement, Lindas 3.0 just needed a new gasket after pressureising the cooling sytem and getting hot, and had no other issues afterwards. Block and head were fine.

[mickey]

thanks tony. i must admit, even when the ashtray gets full, i'm worried its the head gone. in fact, i think it would be a relief if it did, could worry about the block cracking then instead. went for the 3.00 litre to avoid such worries too!! trouble is with me, sometimes i'd rather worry about things than to address them!!...the cambelt was done 6 months ago, the vehicle has never towed, and living in norfolk, going up a kerb once was the most the engine has pulled...however, you obviously know your stuff, if it would give those symptoms i need to get it looked at, if that checks out ok, then fingers crossed its not too big a deal. hopefully tomorrows cold start will tell me if it was a glitch or an ongoing problem..

[Rob]

Drove mine for six months (from easter 'til autumn) with a rad full of mud and overheat probs when going up slight inclines at anything more than 65mph.....then came autumn and i finally got round to removing the rad to clean the mud out. Hasn't given me any probs so far but then again i was aware of the problem and never pushed it into the red. Got over 100,000 miles on mine as well, cambelt last done about 70,000km ago if the sticker is anything to go by. Good engines.

Touch wood

[mickey]

yeah rob, i'm sure the 3.00 ltre is a strong ole lump.for every one guy that knows someone who's 3 ltre blew it's nut, there are probably 20 happy surfers with the same rig that have never put a spanner to theirs..my paranoid attitute stems mainly from a low income. really wanting a surf, but financially not really being able to justify its purchase, i opted to do my homework thouroughly. eventually deciding on a small loan, buying from a dealer,(for the years cover), and opting for a low mileage 3.00 litre......................... .............................. .............................. .............................. .apart from an irritating problem with the tyres, and replacing a weeping radiator, its been as good as gold in the 14 months or so that i've owned it...my concearn is that i don't understand engines, that makes me feel a little nervous when things dont seem well with it............................ .............................. .............................. .............................. .....like i said,since putting a different filter in, things have quietened down a little, most of the vibration has gone. maybe coincidence, maybe it will come back.tha AA man remarked how smooth it sounded once it was running yesterday, and, she fired as normal on cold start this morning..a mate of mine recons its probably an intermitent loss of compression, hence yesterdays problem starting, and the intermittent vibration, drone or resonation...so far, he is thinking sticking valve maybe?..not wanting to bore you guys reading this, its just that when browsing, i get interested in someone's problem, follow it through, then the thread just dies, no outcome. its like a suspence thriller with the last page missing!!..so i'll follow this through for you, anyway, a problem shared and all that!!

[Mart]

The price isn't excessive, its getting on for £150 for the Head gasket and head set from Toyota, which I'd strongly recommoned getting.

I'd only skim it if it really needs it, and then get the thinnest head gasket if you do. no really any need to increase the compression to much on a deisel motor, they have plenty!

Most important is to make sure the block deck and head are flat.

If its any encouragement, Lindas 3.0 just needed a new gasket after pressureising the cooling sytem and getting hot, and had no other issues afterwards. Block and head were fine.

Well got the head off and its buggered!!! Completely. Cracked across all four cylinders and into the expansion pots. New head £1150 Inc Vat from Toyota plus £450 to refit etc. £1600 so far.



I think the leaking rad was sucking in air and that made the head go from overheating. However, I never got cold air blowing through the heater (i.e. no water in rad) and the temp gauge didn't budge off normal (very paranoid about that given previous posts on 2.4 heads). Perhaps the temp sender needs replacing?



Any thoughts?

Cheers

[mickey]

thanks for posting the cost of the new head mart..yeah, the overheating issue is a bit of a minefield..seems that the consensus on the 2.4 is that the design was the problem, where with our 3 ltrs we haven't got the peace of mind, that once replaced, it probably won't go again any time soon..maybe the restricted outflow on the rads, as mentioned are partly responsible, maybe in your case, and mine, having had a rad leak too, its just due to hotspots in the head caused through airlocks..
....have to say..touch wood, haven't had the AA out again, rig running smooth and smoke free..on cold start, i can detect the pitch change attributed to compression loss, but as yet, haven't had it tested..once fired, it will turn over fine the rest of the day, which to me, would point to rings?..once, or if, there is an outcome, i'll post it, but while she is running ok, i'm loathed to have it messed with, not only that, as mentioned, it would have to be tested from cold, that means leaving it overnight, not something i can afford to do just now..so whilst the coolant is staying at the right level, i'm not too concearned.by the way mart, was your head fitted by a small outfit or a dealership..as i have no idea of expected labour charges?

[Mart]

Small outfit in Chertsey(South Bank Autos 01932 569506 ask for Dennis). Good bloke and honest too which can be rare. I do all my own servicing and oil changes so I cannot comment on charges for that but the headwork he is doing is a good price. £450 is for removing, stripping and rebuilding the head. Only extra I'm expecting is a little labour for repairing rad top and moving all the parts from old head to new.

I'll keep you posted on total costs and parts. I'm also having the cambelt done. Only £20 for the belt, which has to come off anyway.

Cheers