My Head Hurts !!!

[kev1963]

Hi Everyone,

First time on the site. So thought I'd start with an old chestnut. This time a bit different though.

Got a 2.4 surf about a month ago, overheated on the motorway, etc etc.

Spoke to loads of garages who wouldnt touch it. So despite never having held a spanner before decided to give it a go. Stripped her down and found the head was cracked in two places between the cyclinders. Got a new head complete from the head centre in cornwall. Fitted it ok, but like a wally just thought I would give the head bolts a final tweak, and snapped the bolt off. Thought I might chance it and finished building it, started first time but water came out straight away.

So stripped the whole thing down again, got the head off, was advised to use gasket sealer and put back together again. Which I have done.

Started the old girl up again, and with a bit of easy start got it going. Runs fine on tickover, but as soon as you rev it it pops and farts, and blows smoke out the exhuast. Checking the dipstick, oil is spitting out. (at least no f____g water this time.)

So is it the head gasket not sealing which means stripping it down again?
Are the bolts just not tight enough (bit cautious tightening them this time)?
Is it another problem?
Should I consider a motor bike?

If I can sort this out I promise I will give back the spanners I borrowed and never touch my surf in anger again.

[da SLUG man]

Hi Everyone,

First time on the site. So thought I'd start with an old chestnut. This time a bit different though.

Got a 2.4 surf about a month ago, overheated on the motorway, etc etc.

Spoke to loads of garages who wouldnt touch it. So despite never having held a spanner before decided to give it a go. Stripped her down and found the head was cracked in two places between the cyclinders. Got a new head complete from the head centre in cornwall. Fitted it ok, but like a wally just thought I would give the head bolts a final tweak, and snapped the bolt off. Thought I might chance it and finished building it, started first time but water came out straight away.

So stripped the whole thing down again, got the head off, was advised to use gasket sealer and put back together again. Which I have done.

Started the old girl up again, and with a bit of easy start got it going. Runs fine on tickover, but as soon as you rev it it pops and farts, and blows smoke out the exhuast. Checking the dipstick, oil is spitting out. (at least no f____g water this time.)

So is it the head gasket not sealing which means stripping it down again?
Are the bolts just not tight enough (bit cautious tightening them this time)?
Is it another problem?
Should I consider a motor bike?

If I can sort this out I promise I will give back the spanners I borrowed and never touch my surf in anger again.

um... probably warped the head... you'll have to buy another as it wasn't fitted by a qualified mechanic and they'll check it on a flat block... shouldn't use gasket sealer on the cylinder head! it's for ickle gaskets like... but i might be wrong!... but that's more than likely what it is!
didn't you use a torque wrench and torque the bolts in the order specified in the manual?

i don't wanna worry you but... um... worry!

[Smurf]

I would think that the gasket sealer is your big mistake!!!! if it is missing when you rev it then it is probably sucking water into the cylinder through the head gasket, if oil is spitting out the dipstick then combustion is either forcing past the rings due to raised compression(water in bore would cause this) or getting through the head gasket to the oil return channels!!
You would be very unlucky to have warped a new cast iron head unless you have seriously overheated it?????
Head gaskets should always be fitted clean and dry!
I think you need to strip it back down and get a new gasket and new set of stretch bolts(dont be tempted to re-use the same ones or they will snap......back to square one!!!!!!)
Oh....last but not least.....GODD LUCK

[kevb]

Definitely should not have used gasket sealer on the head gasket.you said your engine over heated on the motor way,when you took the head off did you check cylinder bores for scoring,if the engine overheated badly the rings and pistons can sieze in the bore.This would give you a lot of blowby in the dipstick,oil filler cap and breather hose.what colour smoke are you getting when you rev the engine?
this will also make it difficult to start because you are losing compression.when you torqued the head did you start in the middle and work your way out?
i think the torque is (1) 60 foot pounds
(2)90 degrees
(3)90 degrees
is this what you torqued the bolts too?

[kev1963]

Definitely should not have used gasket sealer on the head gasket.you said your engine over heated on the motor way,when you took the head off did you check cylinder bores for scoring,if the engine overheated badly the rings and pistons can sieze in the bore.This would give you a lot of blowby in the dipstick,oil filler cap and breather hose.what colour smoke are you getting when you rev the engine?
this will also make it difficult to start because you are losing compression.when you torqued the head did you start in the middle and work your way out?
i think the torque is (1) 60 foot pounds
(2)90 degrees
(3)90 degrees
is this what you torqued the bolts too?

When I re-assembled the engine the first time I got it running ok, and it started first time, after the initial coaxing with a bit of easy start. The only reason I decided to strip down again was to cure the water problem. I didnt run the engine for more than 30 seconds the first time . As soon as I saw water coming out the expansion tank I knew I still had a problem.

The second time I ran the engine for about 2 minutes and stopped it as soon as I realised the oil was coming out of the dip stick. On both occasions the radiator didnt get even warm so I cant believe I have warped the brand new cast engine.

I havnt torqued the bolts as I didnt have one but I tightened them centre out in a ring.

I suspect the problem is that the gasket sealant has a break in it causing oil to pass through, (water is not passing through).

I wondered if it was worth me taking the top off and torquing the bolts properly or just starting again?

Just a note for anyone that is reading this. If tightening the head bolts make sure the bracket that holds the air conditioning unit is slackened off at the top as this is bolted to the block and the head, and is what caused my bolts to shear last time.

Kevin

[kevb]

you havent warped the head if you only had it running for that long.
did you blow out the stud holes so there was no dirt or water or oil in them?this would cause a hydraulic lock(make the bolt feel as if it was tight but it wouldnt be)(it can also burst the block).did you tighten the bolts down in stages?
what level is your oil level at?

[Tallyman]

I did something similar with a Mk1 Spitfire 35 years ago when I couldn't afford a torque wrench. I thought I'd tightened the head down enough but it was way out. Cost me loads to get a garage to put it right and that was on a normal petrol engine, not a turbo diesel.

Sorry, but mucking about with a head without a reliable torque wrench is just about the worse thing you can do. I never ever touch anything that has a torque rating now without using the torque wrench.

You will probably need to drain the oil as well as the water, put it back together with all new gaskets and make sure you torque the head properly. It might just work right then.

Best of luck.

[Koi]

2.4 2LT/E
1st stage 58ft/lb 78nm
2nd stage 90 degree turn
3rd stage 90 degree turn.

[Guest]

OK.

Without a Torque wrench you will be seriously in trouble getting the head tightened down properly.

Other things to check while you have the head off again.

1. Make sure the timing is spot on. This may be causing the spluttering.
2. Make sure all the injectors look OK, if in doubt get them spray tested.
3. Check the valve faces and valve springs. Get a valve spring compressor as it could be a dent out of the valve seat.
4. Test the rings by pouring some nice clean oil down the bores - not to much but enough to see if it leaks past the rings. The oil coming from the dipstick will be coming from too much crankcase pressure. This can be caused by head gasket or rings.
5. When you reassemble the head, make sure that you have a complete set of new stretch bolts, the bolt holes are clean, the head gasket is fitted the correct way up. Don't use gasket sealant, you don't need it. If you must use Hermetite Gold spray on and use it very sparingly. Whatever you do don't use the red gunk.
6. Make sure that the bores are clear of dirt, swarf, and any left over oil from the leak-by test.

Hope that this helps. It doesn't sound like you have a major problem, just a bad seal with the head gasket.

Cheers

[kev1963]

OK.

Without a Torque wrench you will be seriously in trouble getting the head tightened down properly.

Other things to check while you have the head off again.

1. Make sure the timing is spot on. This may be causing the spluttering.
2. Make sure all the injectors look OK, if in doubt get them spray tested.
3. Check the valve faces and valve springs. Get a valve spring compressor as it could be a dent out of the valve seat.
4. Test the rings by pouring some nice clean oil down the bores - not to much but enough to see if it leaks past the rings. The oil coming from the dipstick will be coming from too much crankcase pressure. This can be caused by head gasket or rings.
5. When you reassemble the head, make sure that you have a complete set of new stretch bolts, the bolt holes are clean, the head gasket is fitted the correct way up. Don't use gasket sealant, you don't need it. If you must use Hermetite Gold spray on and use it very sparingly. Whatever you do don't use the red gunk.
6. Make sure that the bores are clear of dirt, swarf, and any left over oil from the leak-by test.

Hope that this helps. It doesn't sound like you have a major problem, just a bad seal with the head gasket.

Cheers

Thanks guys,for all the advise.

I think it sounds like the gasket.

I have now got a torque wrench so I will use that. On the new bolts.

On tick over it runs as sweet as a nut only starts to missfire when I give it some gas.

Unfortunatly red gunk was used.

Valves shouldnt be a problem, it was a complete top end, including new valves etc etc.

Timing is all lined up also.

Once I get her running again I will let you guys know.

One other thing it took me 2 days to strip and two days to rebuild the first time.

Second time started at 8.00 on saturday, turned the key 2.00pm sunday

Going to attempt a 24 hour turn around this time.

Not bad for a complete novice- the fact it is still F-----d is not important right now.

Thanks again.

Kev