Fault Finders Needed!!!!!!

[whitespider]

Hi everyone.
Update on my surfs progress.
I placed a thread named 'major head story' but in brief here is the first part of the story:

70mph down A9 after fitting new head from UK Cylinder heads (Head Centre), new thermo, new rad etc.
Loud ticking/knocking noise, smoke out back(blue) and eventual power loss.

Towed back to garage that fitted head. Head removed and sent to Head centre who said it was warped, the injector chambers were loose and moveable.
Head centre refused warranty but did replace injector chambers for oversize ones and apparently skimmed the head. They sent it back to me.

Part 2

Head was refitted by garage, connected enough to get going and test the head. Same noise.
Garage then embarked on a bottom end strip down.

Big ends fine, crankshaft fine, bores fine, pistons fine including rings and tops.Small ends fine. Independant engineer looked over bottom end, he said he was 'confused not to find anything' and said it all 'looked like new'.

Part 3

Garage went to head next, they have checked the cam-fine, the injector chambers are rigid.
They said that they have only two things to check- the valves and seats and the injector pump. They are doing this tomorrow.
They said 'if we don't find anything there we are stumped'.

Sorry to be so long winded but thought if someone might have an opinion its worth writing it all down.
I know its impossible to diagnose anything remote, but any advice would be really welcome. Would the seats or injection pump give this sort of noise/problem?

Thanks for your help. I am going to subscibe to the forum, as I feel its a vital source of help for surf owners.
How much is it? and how do I do it?
cheers
Ronnie(aka Lightwallet.)

[marky]

send a pm to STEVO he builds & recons engines for a living including the surf 2.4 engine. im sure he'll be able to fathom it out for you.

[gemini]

did this Loud ticking/knocking noise, come on all at once

[whitespider]

Yes, when it happened on the motorway I had done about ten miles from home that day- about 200miles from fitting the new head.
I was accelerating and the noise started all at once. Smoke came out of exhaust, I pulled over into layby got out, popped hood and listened, my first thought was the sound came from the top of engine, it then started to loose power, so I turned it off. I then started it again, which it did, but the noise was instantly there.
There was no pressure in cooling system, no leaking either. Nor was there any oil loss, but the smoke out back was blue and not white.
The sound is a loud tap that goes up and down with acceleration, a bit like a very loud normal diesel chatter. Vibration is present but not outrageous.

Any ideas? Anymore info supplied willingly.
cheers
Ronnie

[whitespider]

Heres an interesting one-

The garage looked into the head today and found nothing wrong. They called up an injector specialist.
He said "Is it a surf? Well I am 110% sure its your EGR. I have recently done 2 that had this problem, the build up of gases in cylinders causes all sorts of problems, and can cause a serious knocking, I would say thats your problem."

I will let everyone know what the outcome is. My garage are going to blank off the metal pipe behind the head and take out the EGR completely.

Anyone know if this sounds plausible and would blanking the EGR give any further probs.

If it cures the problem I will set a thread about it, I think that if it turns out that it is the EGR then a lot of people could save a lot of time and money and head for this when they have a serious knocking sound.
There could be some mileage in investigating the EGR for yourself.
Still the engine is in bits and we have a long way back out, so it may not be but as there is naff all left to check, it might just be.
Let you know
Ronnie

[Koi]

Oh the good ole EGR, type it in the search option and it will return you hundreds of posts on the topic, its been covered on here many many times before.

Exhaust Gas Recirculation Valve
Exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) systems were introduced in the early '70s to reduce an exhaust emission that was not being cleaned by the other smog controls. Oxides of nitrogen (NOx) are formed when temperatures in the combustion chamber get too hot. At 2500 degrees Fahrenheit or hotter, the nitrogen and oxygen in the combustion chamber can chemically combine to form nitrous oxides, which, when combined with hydrocarbons (HCs) and the presence of sunlight, produces an ugly haze in our skies known commonly as smog.

So basically it recirculates some of the exhaust gases back in to the block to reduce NOx. It says in doing this it reduces the operating temperature of the block, I have read many many articles on this topic. Some written by the Green/environment people who advocate you should never disconnect the EGR because of the detremental effects it has on your engine, of course they would, nothing to do with the environment of course.
Some by Profs. of motor mechanics, who don't deny in disconnecting the valve it raises the NOx levels released to atmosphere (our MOT laws in England don't test for NOx). They also claim that lowering the operating temperature is not a bad thing except the recirculated gases cause hot spots and on cast heads thats not good. The recirculated gases are reintroduced into the block on one side, so cooling that area not the far side of the engine, one side hotter than the other.
The other down side of the EGR is, in reintroducing the gases back in to the engine, this will place an even greater demand on engine oil performance through increased soot generation and acid levels. So you need to make sure regular oil changes are strictly adhered to.
The EGR also comes with another downside slight loss of power and decreased MPG.
The very early valves (like on the early surfs) were single diaphram valves that open on positve pressure (some open on negative pressure) these early valves entailed a mass of vacuum hoses within the engine bay. They were not that reliable, hoses can rot, split, the diaphram within the valve can perish, become perforated. All this leads to a non or poorly operational valve.
This system had many problems. It would often open to much, which caused a hesitation on acceleration as massive amounts of recirculated exhaust hit the combustion chamber. The peak temperature NOx is produced at only occurs when the engine is under full load, not all the time so with older style valves it recirculated all the time.
The newer valves are controlled by solonoids, so control the recirculation better only reintroducing the gases when the engine is under full load. So are more reliable don't effect performance so much or the MPG.
I have disconnected my EGR, I personally noticed more low down torque on my surf and better MPG.
I hope this answers your question with an unbiased opinion, there are the greens who write articles on the EGR saying how great it is and mechanics who write articles saying the early valves were poor.
Thats the info, you make up your own mind.

I dont think there is a need to totally remove your EGR, just block off the hose. As far as I know if the EGR fails then it will stall at low revs (tickover) be hesitant on acceleration. If its stuck open then it creates the effect of blocking it off anyway.

[whitespider]

Thanks- excellent response, tells me all I need about EGR.

In your opinion, would or could an EGR faulty or working cause a bad knock from the engine? There appears to be no other problem, anywhere-head or block or timing.
Im trully stuck, and this injector specialist is "110%" that its the EGR causing the knock.

[Vagrant No2]

Thanks- excellent response, tells me all I need about EGR.

In your opinion, would or could an EGR faulty or working cause a bad knock from the engine? There appears to be no other problem, anywhere-head or block or timing.
Im trully stuck, and this injector specialist is "110%" that its the EGR causing the knock.

Have the pistons been pulled out ? Sounds like a broken piston ring , due to loss of power and blue smoke .


Rick

[whitespider]

Yes m8, the pistons are lying on a table in the garage. No sign of a problem there.

[gary]

gary

i had loud ticking noise on my 2.4 td that got worse over a few weeks and knocked when turning or at low revs took all belts off (suspicious of pully wobble)and found alternator tension bolt loose put it all back together no more noise. (sofar) failing that could be injectors good luck.

[Koi]

Thanks- excellent response, tells me all I need about EGR.

In your opinion, would or could an EGR faulty or working cause a bad knock from the engine? There appears to be no other problem, anywhere-head or block or timing.
Im trully stuck, and this injector specialist is "110%" that its the EGR causing the knock.

My opinion for what its worth is, if the EGR fails open (which is the same as doing the mod) then there is no difference to the engine noise etc other than you may notice less smoke and slightly more torque low down.
If the EGR fails, you normally get lumpy or no tickover and hesitant acceleration.
This is only what I have read on the matter and not experienced a failed EGR my self. Of what I have read about a failed EGR nothing has mentioned any engine knocking, but it doesn't mean it won't.
I tend to agree with Rick and thinks its more mechanical.

[mart 870]

I`ve got a 03 Merc Sprinter for work and one day it started rattling like mad, big clouds of black smoke and no go. It sounded just like the big ends had gone on the crank (i had 3 cranks go last sesason to oil starvation in my race car so i know only too well what it sounds like) The Merc recovery man came out had a look and said the same and it was recovered. Back in the workshop it was diagnosed as a faulty injector - it was letting too much fuel through thus making the engine fire at the wrong time on one cylinder giving it the terrible noise.

Now i cant say its the same problem and you mentioned that your garage called an injector specialist but it might be worth getting them checked properly so at least you know that they arent the problem.

[whitespider]

Thanks m8 for that advice.
The garage are shutting out the EGR and putting the whole engine back together, tomorrow they fire her up, fingers crossed.
They believe its the EGR causing the noise by unburnt gases in the cylinders forcing diesel in and effecting the firing times, the noise being the atomisation of fuel on compression coupled with timing being slightly out.
Your thread about your merc van gives me hope that it is the injector or EGR side rather than anything lower down.
I was wondering how unburnt fuel in cylinders could cause a loud sound- thanks for giving an example.

If its not the EGR problem I will go for the injectors next, haven't really anywhere else to go!
Thanks
Ronnie

[gemini]

Thanks m8 for that advice.
The garage are shutting out the EGR and putting the whole engine back together, tomorrow they fire her up, fingers crossed.
They believe its the EGR causing the noise by unburnt gases in the cylinders forcing diesel in and effecting the firing times, the noise being the atomisation of fuel on compression coupled with timing being slightly out.
Your thread about your merc van gives me hope that it is the injector or EGR side rather than anything lower down.
I was wondering how unburnt fuel in cylinders could cause a loud sound- thanks for giving an example.

If its not the EGR problem I will go for the injectors next, haven't really anywhere else to go!
Thanks
Ronnie

its gasses burning which will create more of a knock, not unburnt gasses, anything in the cylinder will burn, if you put petrol in by mistake mixed with the diesel it will have the same effect, louder knock

[mart 870]

Yeah good point that, diesels are good at running off sump oil at full revs when you stick them on their roofs, until they run out of oil that is.....