tracking/balancing

[big d]

had the surf tracked today, problem was i was getting a shudder seemingly coming from the off side front when i reached 60 mph, now both places i went to said that vibration was down to balancing, fair enough, but what prompted me to get it tracked was the fact that in two and a half months of motoring, the front tyres have gone from being perfectly even worn to feathered on the inside edges, which to me suggests toe out! the first place i went i asked if they did tracking? yes was the reply, so after a wait for a free bay for a good twenty minutes and driving my beloved into the bay i was told, we dont do imports sir! the second place i went to was more obliging, they said that if their gauges would do the job so would they, the wheels were set to minus two, which to me means toe in, according to his book the setting ( presumably for a 4runner ) was plus or minus one, i asked him to set it to zero, as i remember someone on this site saying that is the setting for a surf, and that it is bang in the middle of his setting tolerance, as it was four wheel tracking, he set it to double zero, but what puzzles me is the fact that two months ago both front tyres were evenly worn, there was no sign of trouble at any speed, i have done about 3000kms since then a lot of which was with the caravan on the back, and the track rod adjusters were so tight that he had to use oxy acetylene to heat them up in order to move them, so obviously the have not been altered recently, so what the h**l has happened in two and a half months?

[rich]

It may have been me that said zero - not quite accurate!

93' UK 4Runner (from Toyota dealer)...............(Courtes y of Tony)

(all in degrees, can't find the key for it)
Camber.....0.10 to 1.10
Caster......1.10 to 2.10
Toe..........0.03 to 0.15
Inc. angle...12.35
SAI............11.55

Looking at it from another angle (no pun intended) how low is your front-end. If it is sagging then the shocks may be knacked or the Torsion Bars may be adjusted so that it is lowered (Silly thing that Jap's do to 'em!)

If you measure from the rim of the front wheel to the wheel arch it should be around 13.5 inches.

Rich.

[big d]

thanks for that richie youve cheered me up no end

[rich]

thanks for that richie youve cheered me up no end

Are you being sarcastic?

[big d]

not at all rich, i just dont need trouble like knackered shockers or worst of all a saggy front end, in fairness my front seems straight enough and doing the usual test, ( press and release ) i would be amazed if my shockers were anything less than good, what i am struggling to come to terms with is the fact that something can go from what i considered a perfect drive,two and a half months ago, to being so different now, but hopefully the tracking will be allright now and tomorrow i will feel the wheel weights to see if they are loose, i dont know is it possible they could move?

[rich]

As I thought - sorry!

The wheel weights can come off if they aren't put on properly or you go off-roading. Sometimes the crap can get stuck on the inside of the rim and put the wheels out of balance.

I have also read but been unable to nail it down as truth that the BFG A/T's do go out of balance as they wear (Spelling?) 3000k does seem a bit extreme though. I have just put a new set on the front which has cured the wobble on mine so I will see what happens.

The other thing that it might be is the wheel bearing may have come loose. If mine were anything to go by they had never been checked. Best to jack it up and rock the wheels to see if you get any play. If you do it on the ground the tyres flex a lot.

I would seriously check the height though, mine was seriously lowered when I bought it - used to bottom out over speed ramps - the little ones

Rich.

[big d]

thanks rich you have anwsered a question which i did pose in my original post ( which disapeared mysteriously when i tried to preview it ) the question was to have been, seeing as there is so much rubber on the tyre when it is first fitted, would subsiquent uneven wear affect the balance? but again this surely would not explain the sudden transformation in tracking, or would it? the tyres on my surf are yokhama geolander a/t but they are not the very big chunky ones, and all four of them seemed to be in excellent condition when i bought the car, worn but evenly worn,

[rich]

JKTYRE: "Ideally , balancing and alignment should be checked every 5,000-7,000 kms. However , if you are driving on bad roads , it is advisable to check the alignment and balance more often."

If you want to be really scared read this:

http://www.indiacar.com/index2.asp?p.../techqa/94.htm

By the way, don't forget to check the tyres pressures, the norm seems to be 33 especially as the temperature has been dropping recently (lower pressures). 'cause we all check them every week don't we

[big d]

good one rich, have read it thouroghly, and it concurs with my beliefs, as regard the tyre pressures i am fastidious about these, and allthough i know my pressures are right i can't help feeling when i look at the front two, that they are low, but put the gauge on them and they are fine, i am so bad i have even started to mistrust the gauges, i dont know if you have had the same problems but at one garage the gauge says this and the the next garage the gauge says that, i even found one airline that said a pressure when first applied, and about ten pounds more with a little squirt of air and release, just a thought rich, how accurate are these forcourt gauges?

[andy]

Never have trusted the garage tyre gauges , I carry a digital one in the car , they only cost a few quid .

[big d]

i'll look into that one andy thanks,

[rich]

Absolutley dont trust the garage ones, they don't have to have them maintained like they used to. The worst I have had is 7 PSI low (i.e. tyres were 7 PSI over inflated) - should be laws I reckon - V.Dangerous.

The digital ones are supposed to be within 0.5 PSI tolerance and dont go out of calibration (cause they calibrate everytime you use them) like the analogue ones.

I have used them due to my bikes of which I am fastidious!

[tich]

If I may intergect. having recently invested in a new set of tyres and finding afterwards that my baby was pulling to one side I had the tracking checked (ProTyres in Glos). After adjustment she was pulling to one side, probably slihtly worse than before. I took it back in and they rechecked it only to find that it appeared to have moved considerably when the (so called) fitter tightened every thing up. It may be unique to my Surf, but it appears to be very sensitive. On returning home I found one of the weights on the drive. I took it back to the tyre place and they re-balanced the wheels. They had to put on considerably more weight than they had previously put on when I had the tyres fitted. Apparently new tyres take a few days to settle on the rims and the advice given to me was that its a good idea when having new tyres is not to have them balanced the same day but to leave it for a few days and then return to have the balancing done.
Regards
Tich

[boxertwin]

Big D,

I replied to a similar thread months ago on the old site ( my user name was philh, which was taken when I came to reregister ! ). Anyway..... i had the very same problem - feathering on the inner edge. I took it to Watling Tyres in Lewisham who have kept me in bike tyres for 14 years now, these guys know their stuff and was immediately told it was caused by the action of the power steering. They had seen it a lot.
I simply rotate front to back ( which you should do any way).
Hope this helps

phil

[big d]

thanks for the input, rich, tich & boxersurf, this problem seems to be a bit of an enigma, but comments you have all made, do make sense, what my next move is, to change front to back & visa versa, and see what hapens to the tyre wear then, the big puzzle to me is that for two and a half months, this car has been a fantastic ride, and now ( while it is far from rubbish it is not the ride that it has been, but rest assured i will do everything i can to find out exactly what has happened, i drove my son's surf tonight which is exactly the same model as mine but a year younger, and the handling seems so much better, plus smoother autochange and not so much over revving on hills, so it may take me a while but i am determined to find out the causes,cheers.