Message of warning.

[Fricfrac]

Ignore the brand loyalty.

Read this thread and look at the videos, read the news reports.

Serious stuff here guys.

I apologise in advance for linking to another forum, but it is a serious issue fellas.

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forum...-from-towballs

[BioHazard]

Yes that's why you fit proper recovery points Pin hitches are better and also Nato hitches

Pin
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Towing-Jaw...item33723d886d

Nato
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LAND-ROVER...item51a62e0b1d

Plus recovery points should have high ratings for load to allow for shock loading

[TonyN]

The major culprit here is using a Snatch Strap, I loath them, would never use one unless it's the last resort.

Tow bar isn't ideal, but keep a sense of proportion, it's ok for most recoverys on byways, best to keep strap to one side in line with the chassis though if poss.

[kamaangir]

Are these the type of things?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4x4-RECOVE...item3a7cfd93fb

What about some proper d shackles on them?

[Wolfracer]

Are these the type of things?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4x4-RECOVE...item3a7cfd93fb

What about some proper d shackles on them?

No,
Read herehttp://www.lionsratchets.co.uk/kinet...etic-strap-8t.
There is a difference.
Shackles are for your convenience.
I've seen a Towball used for recovery and the loop of the strap is passed around the back of the tow bar and then hooked over, so all loads are through the frame and not the neck/ball

And 2 metre straps are pointless as you would be in the same postion as the stuck truck!
5-10m ideally.

Back to the topic, I "thought" kinetic/snatch straps were kinder to both vehicles as the load is increased smoothly rather than all at once?

Also, is it the neck of the tow ball that snaps?

[kamaangir]

Right I see they stretch where as mine doesn't.

I have a 10M one that is rated at 10T. I have used it a couple of times on the tow ball but have passed it through the actual bar that the tow ball was attached to and mine were just for pulling cars on tarmac not off road.

[TonyN]

Back to the topic, I "thought" kinetic/snatch straps were kinder to both vehicles as the load is increased smoothly rather than all at once?

The trouble is there is no limiting factor, the harder you're stuck, or the harder the other vehicle snatchs it, the higher the forces.

I've seen a perfectly sound Toyota Hilux chassis rip apart sending the shackle, 4" of chassis and the strap through the back window of the Tow vehicle. (only a Jeep Wrangler, nothing heavy).

There is so much energy in it it takes the damper blanket with it as well, so they don't help much either as they do for winch lines and normal straps.

You need to really consider the design of your recovery points, and how much you trust the other driver as well.

All I'm saying is you don't need that kind of worry for 99% of stuck vehicles in the UK, just winch or tow it out with a normal strap.

I've seen a Towball used for recovery and the loop of the strap is passed around the back of the tow bar and then hooked over, so all loads are through the frame and not the neck/ball

Your towbar is still only rated for 2800, or 3500kg, you'll easily put more force than that on it with a 2500kg truck on the other end of a snatch strap.

They have a place in your gear, but people don't realise how dangerous they can be with very little effort.

[Wolfracer]

Ah okay, the unlimited forces thing makes sense.

The fact a truck weights 2500kg against a 3500kg towbar doesn't though...
Is that the weight it can pull or hang off of it?
Just to get it straight in my head.... a massive load offering virtually no rolling resistance would be easy to tow (slowly) with any vehicle, right?

ANY load with a high rolling resistance would be hard to tow...

So I "think" the truck's weight is only one element of the forces applied during a recovery?
I recovered a little stripped out SJ410, probably weighed less than my wheels and tyres, but it took a lot of grunt to get it out the mire...

So, a sling type strap with a SWL of 5 or 10T is better than a kinetic rope?

(not being an arse, just getting it right!)

[TonyN]

The fact a truck weights 2500kg against a 3500kg towbar doesn't though...
Is that the weight it can pull or hang off of it?
Just to get it straight in my head.... a massive load offering virtually no rolling resistance would be easy to tow (slowly) with any vehicle, right?

ANY load with a high rolling resistance would be hard to tow...

So I "think" the truck's weight is only one element of the forces applied during a recovery?
I recovered a little stripped out SJ410, probably weighed less than my wheels and tyres, but it took a lot of grunt to get it out the mire...

So, a sling type strap with a SWL of 5 or 10T is better than a kinetic rope?

(not being an arse, just getting it right!)

Well the towbar is rated to not do something silly with its rated weight on the back, plus how much of an animal you are on the throttle/brakes towing it.

Like you said, the lightweight SJ was a bugger to get unstuck, so then imagine your kitted out Surf (2500kg easy I'd say, probably more), that dosn't leave you a lot of spare capacity for the extra effort on top of that that it'd take you get unstuck from a bog or caught on a rock or tree stump.

This all the same obviously, whether using a solid or elastic strap, but with a solid strap how hard you pull with the truck is roughly the same as the forces on the stuck vehicle, if it dosn't move, you don't move.

The whole point of the kinetic rope is it can produce far more 'pull' than the effort actually required to pull, and it all spirals out of control easily unless you really know what you're doing, it's about knowing when to stop, which in my experiance most offroading rednecks have big trouble with!!

[TonyN]

So, a sling type strap with a SWL of 5 or 10T is better than a kinetic rope?

Sorry forgot that bit...

Not better, or worse, both are for different situations. I personally would leave the kinetic rope packed away unless all else has failed.

[yoshie]

Seen an ARB 6 bolt mounted front bumper get ripped off a surf using a kinetic rope. It tore the bumper in half and flew 80 feet right over the roof of the 90 doing the recovery.

[Rob5464]

I have no experience with them but I have seen enough videos of when they snap to put me off using one.

[Jimpics57]

Forces Required

A simple way to think of these forces is to compare how much effort it takes to lift your foot in a wellie on a tarmac road and then how much force is needed when your foot and wellie are only a few inches deep in mud.

It also explains why winches are only really effective at the 8500 9000lb rating and above because of the suction of the mud or the combined weight of the vehicle and forces of gravity or water flow working against the recovery point or winch and its mounting!

We do a lot of recoveries every weekend and it still amazes us how a good winch well mounted and used properly can get vehicles out of the brown stuff and even whole groups when the going gets really tough!

Safety though and restraint are also more important than the gung-ho get it out of there attitude, because damage or injury is just waiting to happen if recovery points shackles are not secure and safe working limits are not taken into consideration.

Done properly recoveries can be fun rewarding and a fantastic learning experience for all and a great team building exercise!!

Attachments show us winching a Disco out of a very sticky track on Salisbury Plain.

Remember a cubic meter of water weighs a ton! So a surf in water with the windows open and full of water up to its wasteline could weigh as much as five tons or more, dead weight without mud suction or water flow working against you!!

With those kind of forces if anything gives way the backlash will be considerable!

Enjoy your off roading!

[b7ad]

Interesting thread. I've had a strap snap and the force it goes with is very scary!!!

Is there anywhere that does recovery courses as I would be interested to learn a lot more.

[Predictable Bob]

You could try here ...