Here's something I've never understood...

[Hesh]

I agree, there can't be anything worse than losing a child. But if they hadn't left her, and her younger siblings, alone that night, she'd still be alive and well with them.

They are 100% to blame for whatever happened to Madeline, if they'd been a Jeremy Kyle couple they'd be rotting in jail by now.

100%? and what of the low lifes that actually took the wee little girl?

I'd say they are partly responsible for the situation that lead to the abduction, but honestly - how many of us as parents have turned round at tescos or wherever and had that heart stoping movment becasue the wee ones have "decided to hide to from mum/dad - cos itll be funny"

I hate letting my daughter of 7 go off and do things out of my sight in public places, but they have to grow up...a certain amount of independence is required and its the low lifes that abduct children and do god only knows what that need strung up with piano wire whilst some one plays chopstick with they balls and a sharp knife.

[flounderbout]

You don't think they've courted the press (beyond initially to ostensibly 'find Maddy) at all then Henry?

I know writing about emotional experience can be cathartic, but I fail to understand how the 'publishing' bit, and 'promoting in womens magazines and tabloids' bit continues to be cleansing.

I personally don't think they should be hung, drawn etc. I think they've been stupid (and there but for the grace of Vishnu...) and boy do they regret it now. I just think its odd how they've behaved. I guess everyone handles grief differently.

I am sure that they see it as (and probably genuinely believe it to be) helping to "find Maddy" (as if that is likely now). But I agree that it comes across as crass and self-serving. I deal with this by ignoring all coverage of it.

But I don't think that was the point originally being made ITT.

If being stupid were a crime, our gaols would be very full.

I was certainly left alone on occasion as a child. With a shotgun. On reflection a) perhaps my mother was hoping I would be abducted/have a messy shotgun related accident, and b) that is why I turned out such a dick...

[Sancho]

I don't believe that the truth will ever come out about this whole affair, but what I do strongly believe, is that the McCanns alienated themselves amongst a large swathe of the British public due to the way that they have seemed to revel in the "celebrity status" that being in the spotlight has given them. The anouncement of their book seems yet another example.....Uneasily....Mick.

Yeah, basically what he said. They always seemed from day one to be more concerned about blaming the Portuguese police for being rubbish than they did about actually finding their daughter.

[flounderbout]

...a certain amount of independence is required

Precisely my thoughts. You cannot insulate children from every conceivable danger. Nor can you judge with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight whether the mitigation of risk was acceptable. Child abductions by strangers are incredibly rare (contrary to the impression given by the level of coverage when they do occur). The risk of a child dying in a pool or the sea (for which you only need to take your eyes off them for about 30 secs) is astonishingly high by comparison.
I think that children need freedom. That comes with a price, which is that they are exposed to risks. But there are many real risks which people ought to be worried about before they start fretting about the tiny tiny risk of child abduction.
Risk is an excellent read on exactly this topic...

[Apache]

Precisely my thoughts. You cannot insulate children from every conceivable danger. Nor can you judge with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight whether the mitigation of risk was acceptable. Child abductions by strangers are incredibly rare (contrary to the impression given by the level of coverage when they do occur). The risk of a child dying in a pool or the sea (for which you only need to take your eyes off them for about 30 secs) is astonishingly high by comparison.
I think that children need freedom. That comes with a price, which is that they are exposed to risks. But there are many real risks which people ought to be worried about before they start fretting about the tiny tiny risk of child abduction.
Risk is an excellent read on exactly this topic...

OTOH there was a woman being interviewed on one of those morning news progs a while back who had other ideas.

She ran some trust or other to do with Suzy Lamplugh, the rather attractive young lady who went missing donkeys years ago. This lady was suggesting that IF women MUST go out at night, drinking with friends (shudder) then the MUST arm themselves with pepper spray, ditch the high heels in favour of running shoes, and get home as FAST AS POSSIBLE!!!!

She was suggesting that there was an omnipresent danger of rape and murder EVERYWHERE!!! She was IMO, just the sort of person that needed professional help, yet there she was on TV scaring the living daylights out of women everywhere!

[slobodan]

I'm going on SLUTWALK, Should be able to get some there.

[biosurf]

Drives me mad the attitude to risk particularly around kids. FFS let them play outside, eat worms and bounce on a trampoline. If they break a leg so be it, they’re kids. On the other hand make sure they wear a seat belt, don’t play in car parks and that you know roughly where they are. For some reason a lot of parents I’ve met seem to be very extreme one way or the other.

Re: them going out and leaving the kids on their own. The kids being vulnerable is 100% their fault. To my mind that is something you should never do, kids that young need someone with them for a variety of reasons. It was very neglectful, very different to losing your kid in a supermarket and I’m sure they will pay the price for ever (if it wasn’t them)

As to the use of the press, I say fair play to them. As far as I know, they employed a PR professional to keep the story in the press as much as possible and it worked. Of course it made the chances of her being recognised and found a lot higher. She probably has one of the most recognised faces of any child in the history of human kind. In their situation I probably would have done the same thing had it occurred (or been suggested) to me. If it makes people suspect you who cares if there’s an outside chance it might succeed in bringing your child back. Without her or her body being found (and therefore surely a remaining glimmer of hope that she might turn up), regardless of what logic and everything else tells you who wouldn’t still try if they had the means?

[Vultch]

OTOH there was a woman being interviewed on one of those morning news progs a while back who had other ideas.

She ran some trust or other to do with Suzy Lamplugh, the rather attractive young lady who went missing donkeys years ago. This lady was suggesting that IF women MUST go out at night, drinking with friends (shudder) then the MUST arm themselves with pepper spray, ditch the high heels in favour of running shoes, and get home as FAST AS POSSIBLE!!!!

She was suggesting that there was an omnipresent danger of rape and murder EVERYWHERE!!! She was IMO, just the sort of person that needed professional help, yet there she was on TV scaring the living daylights out of women everywhere!

Agree..but it gets the ratings / viewing figures / papers sold... never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

[GBV8]

OTOH there was a woman being interviewed on one of those morning news progs a while back who had other ideas.

She ran some trust or other to do with Suzy Lamplugh, the rather attractive young lady who went missing donkeys years ago. This lady was suggesting that IF women MUST go out at night, drinking with friends (shudder) then the MUST arm themselves with pepper spray, ditch the high heels in favour of running shoes, and get home as FAST AS POSSIBLE!!!!

She was suggesting that there was an omnipresent danger of rape and murder EVERYWHERE!!! She was IMO, just the sort of person that needed professional help, yet there she was on TV scaring the living daylights out of women everywhere!

I know what you are saying mate and I agree but get this.

My wife works in the centre of Belfast which is about 5 miles from our house. She decided to run home from work one evening about 5 o'clock as she was training for a 10k all womens race and wanted to make the best of her free time and the remaining daylight. Running along side the main road she gets about 1 mile outside the town centre and notices three blokes walking towards her on the same path. She was wearing a cap so she tilted her head so that she didn't have to look at them and just as she got pass, one of them grabs her by the arse (and I mean right on the Neapolitan) while the other two start shouting and jeering. She is obviously shocked so she turns giving them a mouth full but they just jog away laughing and hurling insults.
She phones me in a bit of a state asking what to do and I say go to the cop shop as it just so happens is only a few hundred metres away. 3hrs later I go and collect her from the station and the boys in blue are looking into it.
She says that more than likely not much can be done. I tell her at least you reported it and if nothing else it will be recorded along with other women reporting such and maybe it will make a difference somewhere down the line.
So we have an unprovoked sexual attack, in daylight and along a main arterial route to/from Belfast. My wife travels along this route several times a week by bus but the one time she decides to go on foot this happens!

I'm driving home from work the other day listening to the local radio and during the news it mentions that new figures show sexual attacks/assaults against women have increased by 13% over the last year. There is a lot of sick cu*ts out there.

[Vultch]

Sorry to hear that Gary mate... hopefully CCTV somewhere will have them in that area...and the cops can scoop them.

There are a lot of A...holes out there...

[Apache]

sexual attacks/assaults against women have increased by 13% over the last year. There is a lot of sick cu*ts out there.

Sorry to hear about your wife having to deal with cretins - but you have to agree that it isn't the same as rape and murder which is what my point was?

Also, a rise of 13% from what figure? I'd bet money that the original figure is minimal, so even after a 13% rise, the figure is still minimal.

I'm not saying that these things dont happen, but they dont happen to the extent the media would have us believe. There *ISN'T* a paedophile / rapist / murder on every corner.

[slobodan]

Yep. steer clear of supermarkets in Tenerife.

[tintin]

REMEMBER

There is no such thing as BAD publicity!!


I just can't believe anyone can make their mind up as to what happened (and the McCanns guilt/innocence ) based on the actual facts we know so far!
I say give people the benefit of the doubt, they appear to be trying to keep the case as high profile as humanly possible (within the law) so if a book launch and its related press helps, GOOD LUCK to the family!
As for those who condemn them for leaving the kids in a 'apparently'safe environment 120mtrs away............
let yee who cast the first stone.......

[Albannach]

100% - really? No blame attaches to the person that abducted and killed her then? Or do you buy into the "they did it" theory?).

100%? and what of the low lifes that actually took the wee little girl?

Assuming she was kidnapped; had they not went out for the evening (as they had done every night and therefore set a pattern that could be followed), the kidnapper wouldn't have taken her. So the root cause of this scenario is that they were to blame because they failed to take care of her.

Conspiracy theory - I can't figure out why someone would take Maddie and not one of the younger children. Taking and hiding the eldest child would have been far more difficult than taking and hiding a younger one.

[flounderbout]

Assuming she was kidnapped; had they not went out for the evening (as they had done every night and therefore set a pattern that could be followed), the kidnapper wouldn't have taken her. So the root cause of this scenario is that they were to blame because they failed to take care of her.

Albannach - of all people! This is a classic "but-for" fallacy. "But for" the travel agent suggesting this particular resort, Madeleine would never have been abducted. That doesn't make the travel agent responsible for what happened, whether 100% or 1%. The decision to leave her alone is not the "cause" of what happened (assuming it was a stranger). It is merely one of the many things which enabled what happened to happen. There is a massive philosophical and practical difference.

As for whether they were at fault, that is a different question. Views differ. I am not a parent, and so perhaps I am disqualified from the debate. But whilst I see that leaving a young child asleep for a few hours when you are a few hundred metres away is not great, I can't believe it is a massive wrong on the scale of "0" to "the way in which I see parents treat their children every day". With the benefit of hindsight, sure, it was a disaster. But without that benefit? Not sure I would want to make a judgment. Particularly since, if that was a failure on their part worthy of serious censure, no-one ought ever to take a child to a beach.

Conspiracy theory - I can't figure out why someone would take Maddie and not one of the younger children. Taking and hiding the eldest child would have been far more difficult than taking and hiding a younger one.

The conspiracy theory issue is a whole different kettle of fish. The two subjects seem to get melded together somehow - "well they probably did it, and if they didn't they were in the wrong anyway". If they did it, well no more needs to be said.


But as for whether they did do it, I do think there needs to be some basis for the suggestion. The fact that a younger child was not taken is hardly a good basis for assuming they are killers - on the assumption that a stranger stole a child for presumably sexual and/or psychopathic reasons, is it really sensible to assume that he would have gone for either the "easiest" target or the "youngest" child? It hardly defies belief that such a person would have become fixated on one particular child in particular... I don't recall anyone questioning the Huntley murders on the basis that he "could have" taken younger or easier children (and he plainly could have) - indeed Jessica and Holly were 10 (an age at which, incidentally, many people would consider whether rightly or wrongly children old enough to be left alone for an hour or two).

Finally I don't really know why I am arguing this point. I have no strong views in favour of the McCanns at all. Indeed I am with Apache that their publicity campaign makes me feel deeply uncomfortable. But I also feel uncomfortable with some biting criticism of parents who have lost a child. Unless it is really justified. And I guess I am not convinced it is.

In summary then, tl;dr.