Finally!! Bin Laden Shot Dead!

[Rustinho]

entered Afhganistan and bombed it, kiling many civilians

entered Iraq and bombed it, killing many civilians

bombed places on and over the Pakistan border and killed civilians


All these things have been done under a guise of 'fighting terrorism', but when the civilian deathtoll is so high is it really worth it??

some may say yes, due to the bombings in New York an London, but that just suggests that were happy that other civilians are killed so long as we get revenge on a guy or particular group for our civilians that were killed.


im not glad that he is dead, nor am I upset, I just think that the actions that have been undertaken and done more to create hate in the middleeast than Bin Laden could ever do.

Just to play devil's advocate a little (and therefore hiding my own opinions to a certain extent!)...

The civilian death toll (certainly in Iraq, quite possibly in Afghanistan too) would have been much higher had their regimes stayed in place according to estimates by a number of organisations (Human Rights Watch, UN, Amnesty International) because of the nature of the dictatorial regimes in those countries.

It is also quite arguable that the toppling of Saddam Hussein and the introduction of democracy in Iraq is a significant factor in ushering in the so-called "Arab spring" and creating better civilian life in Tunisia & Egypt and hopefully (eventually) Libya too. This has encouraged agreement between the two major Palestinian factions, with the possible outcome being that Hamas moves away from it's militant position supporting terrorism. (Lets not forget that Saddam's regime paid a "bounty" to the families of suicide bombers in Israel/Palestine)

I have a feeling that we haven't quite seen the end of the positive effects of what has happened in the middle east (nor, to be fair, the negative effects as well)

The death of anyone (Saddam, Bin-Laden, et al included) is not necessarily a good thing, no matter how desirable it might be. The death of innocent civilians is most certainly bad - whether they be from the west, the middle east, Persia, the Indian subcontinent or wherever but its easy for people like us to oppose things - it's much harder to be a politician in government who has to make a choice between a number of bad options with the potential for terrible consequences should they fail to choose the least worst option...

[che2318]

The organisations say that the deaths would have been higher with Saddam in power, but that is not proven, that is a best guess at best. With the continual bombs going off in Iraq the civilian casualties are rising all the time, these are recorded. This democracy enforcement in itself is dictator like. Telling a country that it has to be a democratic and then forcing it to change by act of war.

It is a good thing that a country becomes democratic and looks after its own people but that needs to come from within the country not from a foreign state forcing its way of life upon others.


You say Saddam gave money to bombers familes...

was money and support not given to Bin Laden and his family?...were they not trained to kill the Soviet soldiers?

There have been many tyrants that the U.S has supported and put into power, in turn these have killed many of their own people.


My point is...


when these people from the middle east do terrible things its called terrorism, when western countries do terrible things for their own gain its called 'the fight against terrorism'. But in fact, the western allies usually only involve themselves in places of interest to them. i.e. they have something to gain, be it a commodity or possible support and placement of military bases.


What happens when Saudi Arabia decide to stop selling oil to the west when it begins to run out?....

[Surfer Ross]

could also be viewed as anti-semitic ?

I don't see how that could be the case. Considering the last sentence of that paragraph, the only people who will see it as being anti-semitic, are those who choose to see it that way.

The more I see, the more I am convinced they have a view of their position in the world that isn't shared by the majority of the rest of the world. As long as they continue to hold this belief, they will continue to rub countries up the wrong way.

I think that is true of every country in the western world Andy. I can't think of a single developed nation that this doesn't apply to.

[Bogus]

Time for Godwins law to kick in

I blame Hitler. Its all his fault. If he hadnt gone around exterminating Jews, they would have lived happily wherever they were, as Germans, Poles, Russians, Merkans, whatever. They would have gotten used to the idea that Judaism was a religion, and that it could exist anywhere, and that they did not need a country of their own, which their ancestors lost or left several hundred years ago.
Because of what Hitler did they were given a country which other people had been living in. The other people got pee,d off. Their ethnic brothers and sisters got pee,d off for them and before you know it the worlds Muslims decided that they should be unhappy about it too just because the people whose land was divvied up were Moslem too.
So Godwins law is for real. Hitler caused all of this.

[John h]

I don't see how that could be the case. Considering the last sentence of that paragraph, the only people who will see it as being anti-semitic, are those who choose to see it that way.



I think that is true of every country in the western world Andy. I can't think of a single developed nation that this doesn't apply to.

FFS all I said was it could be viewed ? I didn't make any judgement whatsoever

Unfortunately I was unlucky enough to have to go round Auschwitz, the old lesson from history why as BAOR we should've been ever vigilant blah blah blah never mind Ivan the terrible who had the bratty wagon outside camp

[puddlesurfer]

I blame Hitler. Its all his fault. If he hadnt gone around exterminating Jews, they would have lived happily wherever they were, as Germans, Poles, Russians, Meerkats, whatever.

Simples!

[Vultch]

Persecution of Jews occurred well before Hitler.... middle ages

[che2318]

Persecution of Jews occurred well before Hitler.... middle ages

Indeed, most religions have been persecuted at some stage but they 'get over it'. except Jedi, they never get over it. damn star wars geeks.