Drivers of 4x4 vehicles should pay double to enter the London's congestion charging

[Smeg]

Hey, wake up surfers; stop being so rude and defensive and start being more reasonable. Yes, i have a 4runner, and yes i agree with Ken. These vehicles do not belong in towns, especially those with bullbars. Obviously, how the vehicle is driven will have a major effect on the final degree of danger, but these accessories are not required in the city. Perhaps if you are a farmer, but even then you're hardly likely to use you shiny surf for rounding up large animals.

Also, stop blaming everybody else (eg white van drivers, couriers etc.). Start by driving extra politely. It might even lower your blood pressure and prevent some of the more rotund from expiring early.

If you want to protect your right to drive a two ton vehicle (and i do) then it's a good idea not to p*** off those who are looking for reasons to take away those rights.

Why can't we be defensive against people blatantly picking on us for no good reason?
I don't need to defend my right to drive a 2 ton vehicle - that's my God-given right as I live in a free country!

These vehicles "do not belong in towns"? "these accessories are not required in the city"? I live in Manchester, so what am I supposed to do - park my surf outside the city limits and get a bus/taxi/train/other totally useless form of public transport to my house? Or, maybe I should buy 2 cars - a smart car for general driving and keep the surf locked away for offroading (although I don't think the smart car will be able to tow it, so I'm not sure how to get it there?).

Think about what you're saying will you?

Geoff.

[turbotommy]

Why can't we be defensive against people blatantly picking on us for no good reason?
I don't need to defend my right to drive a 2 ton vehicle - that's my God-given right as I live in a free country!

These vehicles "do not belong in towns"? "these accessories are not required in the city"? I live in Manchester, so what am I supposed to do - park my surf outside the city limits and get a bus/taxi/train/other totally useless form of public transport to my house? Or, maybe I should buy 2 cars - a smart car for general driving and keep the surf locked away for offroading (although I don't think the smart car will be able to tow it, so I'm not sure how to get it there?).

Think about what you're saying will you?

Geoff.

I believe that bullbars were designed to protect vehicles from collision with large animals, and for corralling (sp?) them in the outback. Do you need them in town, or at all ?

I live in a town, and use public transport. It's a good way of developing patience. I drive my two ton toy out of town, though will admit to using it to get shopping from supermarkets, and the occasional errand.

I can see why Londoners get a bit peeved with chelsea tractors, as there seems so little point to them in the city.

I'll try to think about what i'm saying ;-)

[turbotommy]

You obviously havent driven in London. "These" vehicles have as much right to use the roads and to have as many bells and whistles on them as the owners wish. The point is, once again, the minority get picked on by the green eyed bigots who dont like the fact that somebody has got something better than they have, and because some pompous little t*t sitting in a nice cushty oak lined office with nothing better to do than think up ways of pi$$ing the common worker off, thinks they have to be right. Lets hope you dont have a beard or a tash , cos next week theres a bill going through to have them taxed, otherwise the wearers of the above will be forced to shave or be imprisoned.

I grew up in london, and still occasionally have the joy of driving there. 4x4s are pointless there, unless you want to drive a vehicle to intimidate other road users, and i've seen plenty of 4x4s driven very inconsiderately. There's also lots of other vehicles driven inconsiderately, though at least some of them have more 'point' eg no white vans = no goods or tradesmen. No lorries = no deliveries.

I rather doubt your conspiracy theory...

[coggie2k]

Okay, so we are not allowed to drive anything bigger than a postage stamp in London, unless we are delivering. Fair argument about van drivers having to be there, but they do drive like plonkers. I hate London with a passion and despise having to drive there because of the cabs/buses and vans. None of which pay their own insurance or own the vehicles so do not care about other road users.

My missus works for the fraud department of an insurance company and the number of fraudulent claims from uninsured vehicles is massive, did you know if you as a legal road user hits uninsured and illegal vehicle you are liable for prosecution. This is the kind of thing that happens when idiots are allowed to make laws.

As for using public transport….Okay be warned.

Firstly can this country really rely on a public transport system that is unreliable and dirty? Susceptible to strike action, so no transport. Public transport is hugely overpriced and never gets you to a destination in an acceptable time. My partner uses public transport to get to work as the bus is outside our house and outside of work. BUT. It is constantly late/dirty crowded with annoying brats, expensive and takes over 45 mins to make a 10 min journey. We are now looking for a second car to ensure she gets to work on time and does not have to stand at a bus stop in the centre of town at night and wait for busses that are frequently late/cancelled or have no driver….

She is happy to take the bus as long as it gets her to work on time and in a cost effective manner, imagine having to speak to clients stinking of the chewing gum some child left on the seat as a joke. I’m sticking to my car as I need to be relied on to arrive at work. I live a 10 min drive from work but there is no bus at all. So I would either have to walk and be sweaty ready for work, or drive. I have to deal face to face with customers and managers so do not wish to smell of sweat, or arrive soaking wet, unless I dress like a North Sea fisherman. No offence to this countries fishermen I love your products.

I believed we lived in a free society where far right dictatorship views were frowned upon! Unless you are in the government or a tree hugger in a polluting 2CV.

If there is to be a freedom to express your views against 4x4’s and bull bars, we should also be allowed to own and drive them. I personally do not think we should supplement public transport that is a private organisation and is making a profit, I also do not believe that the jobless should be paid for the privilege unless they have been working and have been made redundant, that will save lots of government monies, but that will never happen. People allowed to buy council houses I can barely afford to rent a house and am not allowed a council house as I have no children. If this was my utopia people would be sensible and fair, but the world is not a fair place and we motorists will always be persecuted in order to take the blame for anything, speeding wow big crime and lots of revenue for the police/government, tax on fuel, road tax etc, over inflated insurance prices, tolls to use the roads we already pay for.

Motoring will soon return to an elitist option , only the very rich will be able to afford to own and drive cars. Whilst the workers will have to return to public transport or living on the doorstep of work.

The single biggest problem with this country is people are not willing to defend their rights, look at the French farmers or the American public. But not the good old British who are willing to lie down and be walked all over.

Up the revolution!!!

[turbotommy]

Okay, so we are not allowed to drive anything bigger than a postage stamp in London, unless we are delivering. Fair argument about van drivers having to be there, but they do drive like plonkers. I hate London with a passion and despise having to drive there because of the cabs/buses and vans. None of which pay their own insurance or own the vehicles so do not care about other road users.

My missus works for the fraud department of an insurance company and the number of fraudulent claims from uninsured vehicles is massive, did you know if you as a legal road user hits uninsured and illegal vehicle you are liable for prosecution. This is the kind of thing that happens when idiots are allowed to make laws.

As for using public transport….Okay be warned.

Firstly can this country really rely on a public transport system that is unreliable and dirty? Susceptible to strike action, so no transport. Public transport is hugely overpriced and never gets you to a destination in an acceptable time. My partner uses public transport to get to work as the bus is outside our house and outside of work. BUT. It is constantly late/dirty crowded with annoying brats, expensive and takes over 45 mins to make a 10 min journey. We are now looking for a second car to ensure she gets to work on time and does not have to stand at a bus stop in the centre of town at night and wait for busses that are frequently late/cancelled or have no driver….

She is happy to take the bus as long as it gets her to work on time and in a cost effective manner, imagine having to speak to clients stinking of the chewing gum some child left on the seat as a joke. I’m sticking to my car as I need to be relied on to arrive at work. I live a 10 min drive from work but there is no bus at all. So I would either have to walk and be sweaty ready for work, or drive. I have to deal face to face with customers and managers so do not wish to smell of sweat, or arrive soaking wet, unless I dress like a North Sea fisherman. No offence to this countries fishermen I love your products.

I believed we lived in a free society where far right dictatorship views were frowned upon! Unless you are in the government or a tree hugger in a polluting 2CV.

If there is to be a freedom to express your views against 4x4’s and bull bars, we should also be allowed to own and drive them. I personally do not think we should supplement public transport that is a private organisation and is making a profit, I also do not believe that the jobless should be paid for the privilege unless they have been working and have been made redundant, that will save lots of government monies, but that will never happen. People allowed to buy council houses I can barely afford to rent a house and am not allowed a council house as I have no children. If this was my utopia people would be sensible and fair, but the world is not a fair place and we motorists will always be persecuted in order to take the blame for anything, speeding wow big crime and lots of revenue for the police/government, tax on fuel, road tax etc, over inflated insurance prices, tolls to use the roads we already pay for.

Motoring will soon return to an elitist option , only the very rich will be able to afford to own and drive cars. Whilst the workers will have to return to public transport or living on the doorstep of work.

The single biggest problem with this country is people are not willing to defend their rights, look at the French farmers or the American public. But not the good old British who are willing to lie down and be walked all over.

Up the revolution!!!

Well... i was just snuggling down on my organic-yak-imported-by-wooden-sailing-barge Himalayan futon (while thinking of a tasty locally-co-op-produced-organic -knitted-yoghurt) and i came across this screed...

Expressing views freely is the cornerstone of democracy. Doing things that may injure members of said democracy is considered 'not cricket' so there are laws...

True, big flashy cars or 4x4s use more fuel than other vehicles, and it is everyones right to choose what they drive. However, the government may limit your rights to do things that may harm its constituents (eg driving too fast). And i'm all in favour of that, and if it is proven that bull bars are bad for pedestrians (and there isn't a really good reason to NEED them) they should be banned.

Now, i'm off to do some transcendental-chanting-holistic-needle-therapy, just before my nap.

[coggie2k]

mmm

locally-co-op-produced-organic -knitted-yoghurt

I'm hungry now.

I agree, but I feel that banning is a bit severe, as they are designed for a reason, if they are banned then tractors should not be allowed on roads, they deposit mud and are a very dangerous shape, as are JCB's.

If they are independantly proven to be more dangerous in all conditions, then restrictions should be placed upon their usage. But not only to prevent mindless and drunken pedestrians from being injured by their own stupidity. If they are going to be banned/restricted it should be for genuine reasons and not jsut because little timmy was more interested in playing football with his mates on the M4 and didn't look before crossing between the ice cream van and the parked truck.

I do not feel there will be a 100% satisfactory conclusion to this argument, as is always the case, but I do think adequate research is needed with sound conclusions and reasoning.

Anyway back to my tree

[turbotommy]

mmm I'm hungry now.

I agree, but I feel that banning is a bit severe, as they are designed for a reason, if they are banned then tractors should not be allowed on roads, they deposit mud and are a very dangerous shape, as are JCB's.

If they are independantly proven to be more dangerous in all conditions, then restrictions should be placed upon their usage. But not only to prevent mindless and drunken pedestrians from being injured by their own stupidity. If they are going to be banned/restricted it should be for genuine reasons and not jsut because little timmy was more interested in playing football with his mates on the M4 and didn't look before crossing between the ice cream van and the parked truck.

I do not feel there will be a 100% satisfactory conclusion to this argument, as is always the case, but I do think adequate research is needed with sound conclusions and reasoning.


Anyway back to my tree

Oh ! But tractors and JCBs are used for some rather essential things, including the amusement of farmers and builders. Is every trip in your vehicle reeeally important (?); mine aren't, karma-thingy fixing excepted.

What bothers me is that i doubt that there is any organisation that could do the test and satisfy the public that they are independent. If you look at some of the posts, there's a few folk who don't trust anything that the government says. Now, i don't claim that they(govt) are always truthful or right, but MOSTLY they look out for things that help the majority (well, voters i suppose...). Any road laws depend upon this principle.

A cost-benefit analysis is the only way to determine if the need for bull bars outweighs their (non)-safety. I doubt you'd call me impartial, so i'm not going to go there....

[da SLUG man]

that's why jcb's and tractors have speed limited... probably cos they're really tricky to drive at high speed!...

and what's the M4 done now? go pick on your own motorway... (unless you're from Norfolk or Cornwall of course!)

[robnw67]

Speed Limit

Since the average speed across London is only about 11 miles per hour - perhaps they should consider banning all vehicles that travel over, say 20 mph. After all, you wouldn't NEED a vehicle capable of greater speeds, now would you..................?

[Koi]

Since the average speed across London is only about 11 miles per hour - perhaps they should consider banning all vehicles that travel over, say 20 mph. After all, you wouldn't NEED a vehicle capable of greater speeds, now would you..................?

So all in favour of this movement drive Smart cars or Robin reliants right yeah course they do. And we all drive for the sheer hell of it, Now I would rather use public transport at times but you know its c**p. Take a leaf out of France's book or Japan, nice clean trains on time & cheap, no worries like its the wrong sort of snow or wrong sort of leaves. Japan has trains that do 200mph we have trains that do 125mph and crash all the time.
So lets ban horses from the road, they don't pay road tax are not insured if they trash your motor & push bikes as well no insurance no road tax & go peds & buses they are big what purpose do they serve apart from hogging a whole lane to themselves being unreliable & dirty.
Bring on the year 2020 when I can jump in my fying flux capacitor powered surf and fly where ever i want or better still my numbers coming up on the lottery so I can flee this flea ridden, over taxed do what I say god forbidden place called England.

[pops]

go On Nigel Dont Hold Back



I'm With Him :d

[coggie2k]

and what's the M4 done now? go pick on your own motorway... (unless you're from Norfolk or Cornwall of course!)

Sorry Dabigman, I am originally from Swindon and settled in Bath before moving to the other end of the country to be near electricity and running water in the house...

When is the government going to realise the damaging effects it has on the 'good' people of this country. We already have a massive number of qualified, young and wage earning people leaving for better places. I for one would not stop to close the door behind me should my present job offer me work anywhere else.

The more stupid laws and rulings we have in this country the more people are going to resent living here. We are overtaxed on everything we touch or look at, we are evil for smoking/drinking/shooting/driving/owning a caravan blah blah blah. And for god sake try not to be successful or the poor hard done buy non working or those who have not made the opportunities other have will be jealous and demand you pay even more in tax for cr@p services/roads/policing etc...

Maybe if I become a politition I can drive around in a guzzling jag, armoured of course, so weighing tons and being very hard and damaging, all of which will be paid for by the tax payer when I introduce tax on breathing/thinking/nooky/having cement and bricks in your house and then I will introduce a bill to prevent people leaving their houses unless pre-authorised.mmmm my world...

As we all have legal vehicles, jobs and permenant addresses we will always be 'punished', we are easy to tax as we need the car to get to work, and we are even easier to punish for driving as we have a registered, insured car.

[TAZMAN]

Well... i was just snuggling down on my organic-yak-imported-by-wooden-sailing-barge Himalayan futon (while thinking of a tasty locally-co-op-produced-organic -knitted-yoghurt) and i came across this screed...

Expressing views freely is the cornerstone of democracy. Doing things that may injure members of said democracy is considered 'not cricket' so there are laws...

True, big flashy cars or 4x4s use more fuel than other vehicles, and it is everyones right to choose what they drive. However, the government may limit your rights to do things that may harm its constituents (eg driving too fast). And i'm all in favour of that, and if it is proven that bull bars are bad for pedestrians (and there isn't a really good reason to NEED them) they should be banned.

Now, i'm off to do some transcendental-chanting-holistic-needle-therapy, just before my nap.

Ok, sussed it now, youre related to Red Ken or T*sspot Tony arent you?
ommmmm........I want to be a tree.

[Elvz]

It says on my Surf V5 document that it's a "2-axle-rigid body estate" There doesnt seem to be any information about whether it is a 4x4 and I don't think it's legally possible to change that definition once the vehicle has been registered and used so that's the "make 4x4 owners pay more tax" thing done with.

Ken Livingstone is intent on re-opening this issue but whatever else he is he's not stupid so you should look for the underlying intent, which is almost certainly to create a climate in which higher taxes can be imposed on ALL privetely owned vehicles above a certain weight and/or engine size without too much backlash.

[Flannelmeister]

Did anyone see "Top Gear" on Sunday?

It appears that a study has shown that, even if full, trains burn more fuel PER PASSENGER and do more damage to the environment than the combined amount of all the passengers using their own cars. If Ken livingstone is trying to get this through on environmental issues then he seems to have conveniently overlooked this. Perhaps he ought to be closing all the London rail stations..........

I don't mind him having a political agenda, after all that's what !!!!!! politicians do, but he ought to have the common decency to make sure his "facts" are correct before pontificating.

Above it has been shown that 4X4s are no larger than a lot of other vehicles and it would seem that fuel consumption/emissions are lower than those of public transport (or Rolls Royces or Jags I shouldn't wonder).

I find it insulting that he thinks he can present lies as facts and make policy from them and assume nobody will notice.