It's been ten and a half years.......

[davec170]

As part of the build contract for Concorde, pylon hard points were built into the wings and fuselage. This was a condition of the government picking up the build tab (They were made capable of carrying the Bluestreak stand-off nuclear missile). On another note, my old man was the design engineer who machined the prototypes sliding windscreen/nose droop assemblies.

We will all be able to say to our grandchildren:

"Ah, when I was a lad, it was possible to cross the Atlantic in 3 1/2 hours. Them were the days..."

[Surfer Ross]

Smacks of scapegoat to me.

It was a freak chain of events that could have happened anywhere in the world to any aircraft.

I disagree on a few points, Andy.

A small part fell off an aircraft - happens more often than you'd think.

1) Perhaps it was fitted incorrectly?

It was a non standard material (titanium), sourced through a non approved supplier via an illegal supply chain. Titanium is far too rigid to be used on any part of the skin of an aircraft for the reason that it'll cause much more damage than softer metals if it falls off.

2) Perhaps the airfield's FOD inspections should have spotted it?

There is no mandated requirement for FOD inspections between each take off and/or landing. Its generally accepted that contracted mechanics will not fit non approved parts to Commercial Aircraft.

3) Perhaps the ATC should have informed the pilot of the fire quicker?

It would have made no difference due to the point I will make in response to your 4th point.

4) Perhaps the pilot could have attempted to stop - he was near V2 but elected to carry on.

V2 is the speed at which the aircraft is expected to have enough lift to depart the runway for a given takeoff configuration. It is not a decision speed. V1 is the point of no return based on ambient temperature, takeoff configuration, aircraft weight, airfield altitude and available engine power. At V2, the aircraft MUST fly regardless of any other factors as it will not stop in the remaining runway length.

5) Perhaps ATC could have been more forceful regarding the intensity of the fire?

In my opinion, the fate of the aircraft and everybody onboard was sealed when the piece of Titanium punctured the tyre.

6) Perhaps the pilot would have reconsidered taking off if he knew the seriousness of the fire.

As above, after V1 he had no choice but to continue with the takeoff.

7) Perhaps the pilot could have elected to 'go around' rather than aim for Le Bourget?

A "go around" is only performed during an aborted landing, a problem taken into the air requires a return or diversion. Le Bourget was the briefed primary diversion airfield for a problem after V1. The manoevering required for a return was unlikely to be achieveable due to the fire affecting fly by wire commands and hydraulic power to the control surfaces.

I think the verdict reached was the only one available to the court. There are literally thousands of "what ifs", there is one definite. If the titanium strip had not fallen from the preceding Continental Airlines DC10, it would not have caused the Concorde's tyre to burst, puncturing the fuel tank.

They were looking for a reason to bin it - the accident was seen as a reason, even though the aircraft wasn't *directly* to blame.

Agreed.

I was living in Central London on the day of the last BA Concorde flights. I watched the event on TV and heard "Speedbird Concorde 001" going over my house on its approach to Heathrow. I'm not scared to admit that I shed a tear that day. One of the greatest products of British and French engineering, decades ahead of its time and there was nothing else in the world comparable to it, there still isn't today.

[slobodan]

I worked at Heathrow for a while, and at 11:30 I used to lay on the roof of the catering building, smoke a large Jamaican woodbine and let Concorde take off over my head. (if they were taking off easterly)

happy days.

[Predictable Bob]

Rumour control fed me a couple of titbits:

1. The British Concordes were fully modded while the French only carried out 'immediate' mods - allegedly the British Concordes would all have survived the titanium incident

2. The French PM/President was landing at the time and this affected the options available to the pilot


No idea if any of this is even half way right and I'm supposed to be working so haven't got the time to follow it up !

[J i m s t e r]

Titanium is far too rigid to be used on any part of the skin of an aircraft

I thought the SR-71 was mostly Titanium?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockhee...s_and_airframe

"Studies of the aircraft's titanium skin revealed that the metal was actually growing stronger over time, because of intense heating due to compression of the air, caused by the rapid flight of the vehicle (heat treatment)."

I guess, though, that the SR-71 is not a normal aircraft.

[J i m s t e r]

BTW, not having a pop at you Ross, I am just a bit of an SR-71 fan. I think this and the XB-70 are proper awesome

[Apache]

It was a non standard material (titanium), sourced through a non approved supplier via an illegal supply chain.

Didn't know it was titanium, but you'd be hard pressed to find a commercial aircraft flying today that doesn't have non-traceable / counterfeit parts on it. They have even been found on Airforce 1 apparently.

There is no mandated requirement for FOD inspections between each take off and/or landing. Its generally accepted that contracted mechanics will not fit non approved parts to Commercial Aircraft.

Mandated, no. Common sense though? Our ATC used to do it routinely with bino's, and if anything was spotted, the FOD squad would be sent out. May have been due to the type of aircraft we flew, but nonetheless.

V2 is the speed at which the aircraft is expected to have enough lift to depart the runway for a given takeoff configuration. It is not a decision speed. V1 is the point of no return based on ambient temperature, takeoff configuration, aircraft weight, airfield altitude and available engine power. At V2, the aircraft MUST fly regardless of any other factors as it will not stop in the remaining runway length.

Yes, sorry. I misread V2 and V1. V1 being 'decision speed'. However, there is no aerodynamic reason that the aircraft MUST fly at V2. It is merely the speed at which it will fly safely if given the correct control inputs. I do maintain though that if he was aware of the intensity of the fire earlier, he would have known that if he left the ground he was a dead man. Generally there is some run-off at the end of runways, and generally no large obstructions for some distance. Its academic now, but there may have been some possibility of slowing the aircraft enough that it would leave the tarmac a survivable speed

In my opinion, the fate of the aircraft and everybody onboard was sealed when the piece of Titanium punctured the tyre.

Sadly for everyone, you were correct.

One of the greatest products of British and French engineering, decades ahead of its time and there was nothing else in the world comparable to it, there still isn't today.

And you'll get no argument there... A shame beyond description that it's gone, and not reminding the Americans every day that WE GOT THERE FIRST.

As Miles Aircraft Company would have done with supersonic flight, if they hadn't been sold down the river by their own government in response to a 'deal' offered to them by the US Govt / Bell Aircraft Co.

AND TSR2, when they were again sold down the river at the promise of shiny new F1-11's which never materialised, so we got Buccaneer - one of the best and toughest low level bombers ever - as a stop gap!!

British Aviation was world leading until it was shit on by spineless, corrupt UK govts who were in the USA's pocket.

[Apache]

BTW, not having a pop at you Ross, I am just a bit of an SR-71 fan. I think this and the XB-70 are proper awesome

The Brits investigated stainless steel skins to withstand aerodynamic heating. Take a look at this beastie!! Bristol 188...

[Surfer Ross]

Makes you realise how far we have fallen as an independent civil aircraft producer. Its the same as everything else these days.

The SR-71 although not British was a serious piece of kit: http://www.wvi.com/~sr71webmaster/srrcd~1.htm

Andy,

I think the problem is that lessons of the past have shaped operational practice into such a rigid form that the aircraft commander has very little latitude in any given situation. Aborting a takeoff after V1 just isn't an option even though it may be physically possible to stop in the length of runway available. The certification and operating manual figures for rejected takeoffs are performed and formulated with no use of thrust reverse or flap extension greater than takeoff flap settings. Had the reversers been available, its possible that the aircraft could have stopped in time. I don't think there are many (any) Airline Transport Pilots that would even attempt it though.

I totally agree that British Aviation was the envy of the globe. Years of under-investment and corrupt politicians only out to make a quick buck from backhanders saw it thrown on the bone-yard.

[Apache]

I don't think there are many (any) Airline Transport Pilots that would even attempt it though.

I would have had a go, shouting 'yippeekiyay muthaf*cker!!!!' whilst wearing a torn, oily, bl00dy vest.

[Surfer Ross]

I would have had a go, shouting 'yippeekiyay muthaf*cker!!!!' whilst wearing a torn, oily, bl00dy vest.

Andy, remind me never to get on a plane when you are at the helm mate

[Apache]

Hehehe, I suppose I'm saying slightly too flippantly, that rigid thinking is not always the best way.

There's been many times when operating the aircraft beyond or outside of their design limits and against procedure has actually saved the aircraft.

[Surfer Ross]

Totally agree mate. Our L1011 Tristars get caned to death and its the only reason at least 3 of them aren't in a million pieces scattered over the approach to Kandahar Airfield and their occupants suffering the same fate.

[Apache]

Still not got MAWS on them then? They were pondering fitting systems ohhh at least 12 years ago, and were still pondering when I left my old job.

[Surfer Ross]

They're pretty well equipped defensively these days but they're pretty much at the end of the line now that the A330s are on the near horizon. I think that pretty much all of the recent upgrades, JTIDs etc are modular so that they can be removed and re-used.

You can see some of the Defensive Countermeasures suite on this photo, MAWS (or equivalent), Electro-optic infra-red detection sensors tied to the IRCM dispensers etc : http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK---...1e59ae2fe91401

The biggest threat is MANPADs, small arms fire and Optical AAA. This is why we are still treated to the meteor like descent and rollercoaster final approach in a pitch black cabin. All miles outside the passenger service flight envelope. I think its a lot of fun, others hate it.