Cooling Answer I've not seen covered in forum yet

[silvtr1000]

Hi All,

I haven't even bought my Surf yet (gen2, 2.4TD), and like all potential buyers, I'm concerned with the possibility of head trouble . I've found a huge amount of info available either in or through this forum, for which I'm very grateful - it's all of particular use to a prospective buyer.

I've had a look on the Ozzie Surf forum too, where it seems those guys have even more posts on cooling/head problems. That seems to me to stand to reason - hot climate + cooling system of Surfs designed for a cooler climate (Japan) = cooling problems?

I'm in Dublin, where I certainly wouldn't call the climate anywhere near hot, so my question is this:

If I assume, for peace of mind, that the radiator, hoses, thermostat, water pump and pressure cap of my Surf are all bunged up/close to death and ready to crack my cylinder head, wouldn't it make sense to buy & fit all of those items new?

Unless I've got it wrong, and they are all reconditioned used parts, www.milneroffroad.com (as one example) stock all the above parts for a total price of £226.50 , excluding shipping and new coolant.

Maybe I've missed something on the forum(s) (if I have, that's fine - I'll stand corrected and crawl back under my newbie rock ), but if the only cause of cylinder heads cracking is poor cooling due to blocked cooling system passages, then surely replacing the lot with new (or even reconditioned) items, and then properly maintaining the system thereafter will prevent problems.

Or are there other causes of heads cracking?

I hope I don't come accross smart-arsed - I'm not trying to be. I suppose there wouldn't be so much discussion about this topic if the answer was this easy and cheap, but from all I've read, this does seem to be it?

I'm making the assumption that the Surf I buy will be "as described" by the agent I'm dealing with: "we are only interested in sourcing mechanically sound cars". Three checks by qualified engineers would spot a buggered cooling system? A cracked head? Wouldn't it ?

I'm really excited about getting a Surf - I've loved the look of them since the first ones came into Ireland, maybe 10 years ago. I bought a Discovery in '98, because there was still a stigma attached to Jap imports (still is to an extent). I had it for a year, but always lusted after a Surf instead. Now it's a reality, I don't want to be stung, and have my dream soured...

Thanks for your ears... (eyes?)

[Elvz]

Seems about right to me but it's a bit too sensible for the average Surf owner.

[andy]

Seems about right to me but it's a bit too sensible for the average Surf owner.

What are you trying to say Elvz.

[Elvz]

I'm not trying to say anything. I just said it.

[andy]

Well you seem to be implying that the average surf owner is not sensible, nice way to talk about other members.

[Koi]

Hi All,

I haven't even bought my Surf yet (gen2, 2.4TD), and like all potential buyers, I'm concerned with the possibility of head trouble . I've found a huge amount of info available either in or through this forum, for which I'm very grateful - it's all of particular use to a prospective buyer.

I've had a look on the Ozzie Surf forum too, where it seems those guys have even more posts on cooling/head problems. That seems to me to stand to reason - hot climate + cooling system of Surfs designed for a cooler climate (Japan) = cooling problems?

I'm in Dublin, where I certainly wouldn't call the climate anywhere near hot, so my question is this:

If I assume, for peace of mind, that the radiator, hoses, thermostat, water pump and pressure cap of my Surf are all bunged up/close to death and ready to crack my cylinder head, wouldn't it make sense to buy & fit all of those items new?

Unless I've got it wrong, and they are all reconditioned used parts, www.milneroffroad.com (as one example) stock all the above parts for a total price of £226.50 , excluding shipping and new coolant.

Maybe I've missed something on the forum(s) (if I have, that's fine - I'll stand corrected and crawl back under my newbie rock ), but if the only cause of cylinder heads cracking is poor cooling due to blocked cooling system passages, then surely replacing the lot with new (or even reconditioned) items, and then properly maintaining the system thereafter will prevent problems.

Or are there other causes of heads cracking?

I hope I don't come accross smart-arsed - I'm not trying to be. I suppose there wouldn't be so much discussion about this topic if the answer was this easy and cheap, but from all I've read, this does seem to be it?

I'm making the assumption that the Surf I buy will be "as described" by the agent I'm dealing with: "we are only interested in sourcing mechanically sound cars". Three checks by qualified engineers would spot a buggered cooling system? A cracked head? Wouldn't it ?

I'm really excited about getting a Surf - I've loved the look of them since the first ones came into Ireland, maybe 10 years ago. I bought a Discovery in '98, because there was still a stigma attached to Jap imports (still is to an extent). I had it for a year, but always lusted after a Surf instead. Now it's a reality, I don't want to be stung, and have my dream soured...

Thanks for your ears... (eyes?)

you know that could be a possibility, but I changed my stat, took out the rad and flushed it through, took all hoses off and checked them. I flushed the system via the rad one way then the other. I blocked off one rad hose then flushed it through the stat housing, then flushed it through the rad the other way and out the stat housing. I did this to most of the hoses until the water ran clear from them all. I refilled the sytem checked both front and rear heaters were getting hot, I checked the rad for cold spots all was working fine. I moved my number plate to allow better flow through the rad and you know what a year later my head cracked.

[stara]

technically it's 'what are you trying to type'

[v0n]

Well you seem to be implying that the average surf owner is not sensible, nice way to talk about other members.

Provided we are all Surf owners - buying over decade old car without any history or proof of service from shady traders we never met in person, based in country on the other side of the globe for the price of brand new hatchback hardly falls under description of "sensible".

[big d]

Cooling Answer I've not seen covered in forum yet

a lot of people on the forum have suggested that unless you have a water problem, you will not crack the head, i have had my surf on the road for allmost twelve months now, and have given it a fair bit of punishment, i.e. carrying four adults ( three of which were xl's ) the corresponding luggage for these people, and towing a 19 foot 6in caravan, i have religiously checked the water level and it has never lost a drop, the only things i changed before going on the road were belts, oil & filters, my surf is a 1992 2.4td auto, and i love it to bits, and this is a man whose last three cars were all volvo estates, which i thought were comfortable until i drove the surf,

[silvtr1000]

KOI/Nigel & Julie - 2,251 posts?! Have you been around since Noah started sailing? Jeez. Guess I should respect your words.

I had a look at Roughtrax' site - they do a RECONDITIONED rad for £165 (so I presume Milner's rad at £160 is a recon too?) or a new one for £250.

Why is there always something wrong with our ideal cars/bikes/houses/women(men)/shoes? My Honda FireStorm is fantastic, but they're prone to camchain tensioner failure... So I'm selling it to buy a Surf with (maybe) a dodgy head/cooling system?

So given that you gave your whole cooling system such a good clear-out guys, why DID your head crack? Had the gunk built up again in the year without you noticing it? IS there another cause DESPITE a clean cooling system?

There's a thread on the Ozzie forum about the location of the inlet and outlet hoses (beside each other at one of the bottom corners - water is obviously not going to pass effectively completely through the rad) on the 3.0 auto - could it be something similar on the 2.4 manual?

To those of you who have had heads crack and had them replaced - did the new one crack as well?

Sorry to all those of you who I'm sure are fed up with newbies bringing up this topic all the time, but I GOTS TA KNOW!!!

Incidentally, road tax for the 2.4 is €821 a year in Ireland & comp insurance is €922 a year (wife main driver - she has full no claim bonus - with me named. I've been on my own motorbike policies for 12 years) - that's €1743 already just to tax and insure a 12 year old car! Road tax is nearly €1200 for a 3 litre. I haven't enquired about the insurance on a 3.0, but I'm guessing €1200-plus, so it's going to be a 2.4 for me, and I'll tempt fate by saying I'll take my chances...

[robnw67]

Poor Head Design

All of the above posts seem to ignore the fact that the 2.4 head was originally (allegedly) a poor design. There seems to be overwhelming evidence that the coolant channels were not close enough to the combustion chambers in the original head design to allow effective cooling of the head and hence cracking. A clean or replaced cooling system will therefore make no difference to the eventual outcome of a cracked head. The only solution is to replace the head with a new head with redesigned water passageways to enable sufficient cooling.

Unless, I am completely wrong (and I will stand to be corrected), replacement of the cooling system will be a waste of time and money.

[europa88]

All of the above posts seem to ignore the fact that the 2.4 head was originally (allegedly) a poor design. There seems to be overwhelming evidence that the coolant channels were not close enough to the combustion chambers in the original head design to allow effective cooling of the head and hence cracking. A clean or replaced cooling system will therefore make no difference to the eventual outcome of a cracked head. The only solution is to replace the head with a new head with redesigned water passageways to enable sufficient cooling.

Unless, I am completely wrong (and I will stand to be corrected), replacement of the cooling system will be a waste of time and money.

So then , Is It fact that the new heads available are a different design to the original faulty heads? If this is the case then Surely toyota, wether intentionally or not admit there is a problem with the earlier heads!

Having worked for Toyota and being involved in the asian business market I realise getting them to admit this officially would be difficult at best!

Toyotas official verdict is there is nothing wrong with the early 2l series of heads!

But we know different dont we?

However on a final note ,poor maintenance in Japan would certainly contribute to any weakness and I would love to know what proportion of uk spec 2lt engines have had similar problems ( my spies are in place)

[NiftyNev]

silvtr1000

If you want to do all that work to your Surf then go ahead.Don't let anyone tell you not to.This is a good idea for all cars of this age and especially as the previous owner may have been a bit slack with this maintenance.I have done most of this to mine.

Now comes the bad news.The head may still crack despite all this if you have one with the faulty head gaskets (heads ???).This is something that can't be predicted unless you know for sure that the faulty gasket (head ???) has not been replaced through the recall.

Avoiding doing any maintenance on the cooling system just because the head MAY crack is rediculous.This is just asking for trouble.As far as the cooling system not standing up to Australian conditions,well mine is fine.Even in 42degC out west it handled it without any sign of overheating.The cooling system has not been modified at all.

I think a lot of people are blaming the head wrongly.The head will only crack after the engine has overheated and not before.This can be caused by a number of things that can go wrong with the cooling system.If you maintain the cooling system you will reduce the chances of overheating dramatically.

Thats my little rave for the day

Neville

[silvtr1000]

Aha! So there IS another potential cause of head cracking!?

Is this accurate - A replacement head with more effective cooling ports should have been fitted by Toyota to certain cars because of a recall?

If this was done on all affected models, we wouldn't be discussing these issues...

So, in addition to the replacement cooling system, we replace the head with a unit with more effective cooling ports. Are our troubles over then?

If so, where do I get one of these heads?

And how can I be sure that what I'm getting is actually what I'm paying for? I read elsewhere about someone being stung with a potentially dud head (reconditioned or not the better port unit or something?)

Keep em coming!....

[Pete]

Aha! So there IS another potential cause of head cracking!?

Is this accurate - A replacement head with more effective cooling ports should have been fitted by Toyota to certain cars because of a recall?

If this was done on all affected models, we wouldn't be discussing these issues...

So, in addition to the replacement cooling system, we replace the head with a unit with more effective cooling ports. Are our troubles over then?

If so, where do I get one of these heads?

And how can I be sure that what I'm getting is actually what I'm paying for? I read elsewhere about someone being stung with a potentially dud head (reconditioned or not the better port unit or something?)

Keep em coming!....

Mark,
Assuming you've done all the reading about the heads, and seen the poll, why would you want to buy a newly imported 2.4 and risk being one of the 20 per cent? If you've waited all this time for a Surf, I would wait a bit longer and save up for a 3.0.
Search under my user name for a thread called Heads I lose.
Pete