the 4 meter ruling - any advice

[jaky cakes]

A bit of a long shot - but I’m in a bit of a dilemma and I’m hoping someone maybe able to offer a bit of advice..
A bit long winded this so please bear with me...

Is it still possible to build a house without planning permission so long as the roof line is less than 4 meters high??


I'm hoping to buy an old cottage with 6 acres of land. On the land is a newish (10 years old) stable block. the plot is described as countryside - although it is hemmed in back and front by newly built industrial estates and is situated a mile or so between two towns.
I'd like to build a new 4 bed house on the stable block site and then let the in-laws have the cottage.
Unsure of where I stood with the local planning dept - I paid them an informal visit to ask how I should proceed with getting permissions etc.
I met a stone wall of disapproval - without even getting a chance of explaining how/where I’d like to build. Apparently the building would not be "sustainable". I was told that i could apply for formal outlined planning permission - but it would be "viewed unfavourably". I never got chance to explain I’d like to use any kind of eco friendly/renewable materials and also use wind/solar/biomass energy sources etc etc making the building very sustainable. Would also like to live off the land - growing fruit and veg - keeping a few chucks and possibley a willow plantation for harvesting for wood burning stove.
I have been advised by a local builder to seek the help of a planning consultant to help put my case across at a meeting with the planning committee which I may well do.

But (and here's the point of my post) a friend suggested I could build without permission if the roof was under 4 meters high - regardless of floor area.

this is a project that the wife and I have dreamed of doing for years - but could never afford a large enough plot, then this offer comes along from my wife’s aunt which is really the opportunity of a lifetime and would hate to see it pass us by just because of an over zealous planning office junior.

I'm not in this to make a quick profit - indeed all our savings would be tide up in it and would be a life long commitment including me not being able to retire till I’m in my 80's - if my maths is correct!!

I've done a fair bit of research online but can only find cases where this ruling has applied to summer houses and outbuildings.

Thanks for reading this - and any ideas or help would be greatly appreciated

[Albannach]

I think not, but I may be wrong. Otherwise there would be 3.99m tall houses everywhere?

I so wanted to play about with these, but wasn't sure if it was still allowed...

[BUSHWHACKER]

I this the echo thread or the other one?

[jaky cakes]

I this the echo thread or the other one?

Must appologise - double posted somehow - just very tired and stressed!!
duplicate thread now deleted.

[Albannach]

I this the echo thread or the other one?

Unfortunately, this was the echo one. The Jewson link is gone now.

[Albannach]

Vince posted this in the other thread.

http://www.jewson.co.uk/en/static/in...Permission.jsp

Looks like the 4m rule is for extensions, and the rules may be different if your land is up here.

[BUSHWHACKER]

Sancho will be along in a minute to tell it like it is.
TonyN will be able to explain how he got around it too, just drag the build out over two years.

[Sancho]

Short answer is no. Long answer is I'll give you an answer tomorrow when I don't have to be in the feckin midlands in 10 hours time after a trip to the pub.

I am not a planning consultant, but am a development consultant, which is the same thing but more evil. Postcode and name of the council would be handy, but 'viewed unfavourably' normally means you haven't a chance.

[TonyN]

Get some plans drawn up, and have a 'preplanning' meeting with the planners, then you and architect can address all their issues specifically when going for the proper planning application with amended plans.

A design/access statment detailing moral sounding reasons for what you are doing, play down how it won't affect the surrounds much and find some local presidents for what you are doing all helps.

A planning consultant will know how to set things out, and how things work locally and be known to the planners, if you can afford it do it.

Every 'a friend said you can do this or that....' proved to be wrong when we did ours, treat them with scepticism to avoid dissapointment.

Most important thing we found was to listen and ask the planning people questions and work with them, never get stroppy, arguementative or give the impression you are pushing them, it rarely works.

[TonyN]

oh, and most importantly....

LISTEN TO SANCHO!

we did.

[TonyN]

TonyN will be able to explain how he got around it too, just drag the build out over two years.

[jaky cakes]

thanks guys - realy appreciate your efforts!
Adam -you have PM

[adpsimpson]

...find some local presidents for what you are doing...

If you can afford them, surely you could just pay to get the law changed?

I've a colleague whose architect was an expert at getting what they wanted. They planned a house with 2 stories (actually only wanted a chalet bungalow) and a big porch (that they didn't want). After some haggling, and a series of major compromises, they ended up with exactly what they wanted to start with.

[Sancho]

Right, seeing as the Ireland v Brazil game is awful:

There is no '4 metre rule'. You've needed planning permission since 1947. I think you may be thinking of the rule that allows extensions up to four metres (here) if you meet a whole load of other criteria.

There is a fairly similar rule for outbuildings, but the eaves height is 2.5 metres. It goes without saying that you're not allowed to live in an outbuilding.

If the house has a good sized footprint, you could extend it and try to all squeeze in, but I guess that's no go, so you're looking at getting planning permission.

The rules on getting planning permission are governed at local level by something called the local plan (very imaginative). Yours is here.

The problem is that most of the policies in that plan have now lapsed and all of Durham is moving towards something called a Local Development Framework (which is like a Unitary Development Plan, for those who are still awake). To find out what policies still apply, you need to look at the saved policies, which are here.

You will see there that the plan (policies 68 and 70) refers you to other legislation. Now, the planning policy statements are fairly useless as they are national statements from which all other planning policy is derived. So, the best you can get at the moment is the Regional Spatial Strategy (here). That doesn't actually say much but talks about sustainability, which is probably where your boy got that word from.

The big problem here is that the structure of Durham's local politics has changed so the old local plans (for Districts) are being merged with the old structure plans (for Counties) to make a new LDF, so the policy isn't clear. One thing that is clear is that the policy relating to extensions (policy 73 here) is still in force so you would have a decent chance of putting a large extension on the existing building i.e. more than the 4m/half footprint that you're allowed without planning.

If you want to build a whole new house, I would be tempted to put an application in. Conversion of the stable block (genuine conversion keeping the roof and walls, possibly with some extending) might be looked upon favourably, demolition and building a new house there isn't, I think, out of the question.

If you put the application in, they'll have to process it and give you a formal decision. That will state, with reference to specific policies, why it's been turned down. You then have the choice of amending and re-submitting your application (it's free if you do it quick enough) to address the specific reasons for refusal. If their reasons for refusal are clearly BS, you have the chance to appeal, but you would need to comply with every policy to get the permission.

If it was me, I'd chuck the application in, then ask for a meeting with the case officer and talk it through with them. As Tony said, be nice and they might be more helpful. If you can get a proper pre-app meeting before putting the application in, all the better. If you get nowhere at the pre-app, consider finding a local planning consultant who can advise on policy and understands where the Council are with it.

All very boring and confusing; it's rare to find a local planning system in such total disarray.....

Good luck.