Surf's up - almost! Debating whether to raise?

[ithium]

Hi people - I joined the forum about a month ago when I was considering getting a Surf, but this is my first post. However, I have been reading a lot!

I bought my Surf a few weeks ago, settled on a 2nd gen 3.0 TD auto, which I'm very, very pleased with. Plenty of grunt and lots of room for the dogs to go in the back!

I got the Surf for a good price, almost a bargain actually, and it's very tidy except the previous owner was a smoker and one tyre has a slow puncture (and the wheels are pretty tatty but that doesn't matter). £50 for a full valet sorted the smoky smell and now she's good as new (almost!).

I have been very keen on the idea of raising the Surf and have read everything I can on the subject, both at these forums and elsewhere, but I'm not quite ready to take the plunge.

I currently have 275/70/16s on, wich are just under 30" diameter, and about 10" wide. I had wanted to go for 33x12.50, which I think would look awesome, and was choosing between the Kumho KL71s and BF Goodrich MTs. (BFG slightly winning due to not being directional.)

However, I have read varying requirements for 33s, from 2-5" being suggested. I put bubblewrap around a front wheel to simulate being larger, and found that of course it will definitely not fit as-is, but it looks like 2" will not be enough. I'd say 4-5"?

Apparently the way to do that is with a 2" body lift and 2-3" suspension lift. The suspension lift I am not too worried about - get and fit new shocks, lift is not quite too much for the CV boot angle or whatnot, but the body lift worries me.

I have read that as it is a 3.0 it will have fewer issues than a 2.4, and that being an auto the gearbox will lift okay, unlike the manuals which end up with a shorter stick. Some say I need some extensions for things like cables and brakes?! - however I am not totally sure of all of it.

One of my main concerns, amusingly, is my bullbars! I have the full wrap-around bars, which appear to be in two main pieces, but these are bolted together. It seems that the top half is attached to the body, and the lower half to the chassis (can someone confirm...?) which I take it would mean that they would have to disconnect from each other and... possibly would have a spacer inserted? Not sure. Basically I don't want to ruin the look of my bars, or end up obscuring the headlights or anything!

Another thing is handling. My other car is an Audi TT 3.2 Quattro, which is also 4x4 but a big difference I actually find the Surf to be just as much fun to drive, and I love the contrast between the vehicles. I don't have an issue with the Surf's handling - after all, it is a big truck! - but I'm worried that raising by 5" might cause noticeably more body roll? The reason I mentioned my other car is so that readers understand that my other car IS a nice sports car, BUT that I'm not making mean comparisons. I don't expect (or want!) the Surf to feel or corner like the TT! But I also don't want to make the handling or cornering worse if I can help it! Mainly for safety reasons - I already feel like it might fall over at times (seriously - is that possible?!?).

My Surf suffers from saggy-bottom syndrome and so I think the rear shocks need replacing anyway. Plus the slow puncture in one tyre, and the not-so-great tread all around, makes it an ideal time to consider a lift. I don't really want to end up buying 31x10.50s but if the lift is a bad idea then that's what I'll do.

One more thing to note - I pull a trailer. I have a large (15'x6') trailer that I use to collect big logs, and so it's very heavy (the Surf pulls it like it isn't there!). Plus the missus wants a caravan at some point too. So, I imagine that if I raise the Surf by 5" I will have to drop the towbar by 5" too - does that mean some form of plate? How would I do it? Would it be just as strong and safe? Would the lift have any adverse effect on towing ability or safety?

I understand that this has been a long post - especially for a first one - but it's been brewing for about four weeks while I have read, read, read, and tried to decide what to do! The primary reason to raise the Surf is to look what I think is cool (well, cooler) which is perhaps not the best reason but what the hey. I want MTs for the same reason - almost 100% of my use is on the road; I only go offroad to drag logs for collection (although the MTs will be useful there - currently I have ATs which aren't great at that). As the Surf is a secondary vehicle it will not get much mileage and I don't mind exta road noise or what not from the muds - it is, after all, a truck! If I want to be coddled or get somewhere more quickly I'll take the TT :P

Any advice will be very welcome - I'm sure I've read pretty much everything on the subject but there are a lot of opinions (the tyre chap said I only need a 2" lift!) and I respect the ones on this forum.

[ithium]

...just want to say, this showed up in the General forum - probably belongs in the Mods forum but as it was my first post I had to put it in the Newbies area :S

[RodLeach]

welcome to the site!



In short.. do it!



It doesn't make much of a difference to handling really.. the mud terrain tyres will be the biggest knock on performance but dont let that put you off either!

I had one an it was huuuge! an it was amazing fun to drive around in. If you have a TT aswell then no worries at all, you can get your 'fast, sporty' fix from that!

[biosurf]

Hi people - I joined the forum about a month ago when I was considering getting a Surf, but this is my first post. However, I have been reading a lot!

I bought my Surf a few weeks ago, settled on a 2nd gen 3.0 TD auto, which I'm very, very pleased with. Plenty of grunt and lots of room for the dogs to go in the back!

I got the Surf for a good price, almost a bargain actually, and it's very tidy except the previous owner was a smoker and one tyre has a slow puncture (and the wheels are pretty tatty but that doesn't matter). £50 for a full valet sorted the smoky smell and now she's good as new (almost!).

I have been very keen on the idea of raising the Surf and have read everything I can on the subject, both at these forums and elsewhere, but I'm not quite ready to take the plunge.

I currently have 275/70/16s on, wich are just under 30" diameter, and about 10" wide. I had wanted to go for 33x12.50, which I think would look awesome, and was choosing between the Kumho KL71s and BF Goodrich MTs. (BFG slightly winning due to not being directional.)

Kumhos very good on road, cheaper, look the nuts
BFG, more expensive, last a lot longer good on road and off

However, I have read varying requirements for 33s, from 2-5" being suggested. I put bubblewrap around a front wheel to simulate being larger, and found that of course it will definitely not fit as-is, but it looks like 2" will not be enough. I'd say 4-5"? Correct. Ingenious use of bubblewrap by the way

Apparently the way to do that is with a 2" body lift and 2-3" suspension lift. The suspension lift I am not too worried about - get and fit new shocks, Get either +2 springs or landcruiser springs lift is not quite too much for the CV boot angle or whatnot, but the body lift worries me. Its fairly easy or a garage could do it in a couple of hours

I have read that as it is a 3.0 it will have fewer issues than a 2.4, and that being an auto the gearbox will lift okay, unlike the manuals which end up with a shorter stick. Some say I need some extensions for things like cables and brakes?! - however I am not totally sure of all of it. Brake lines will need to be extended, can get the custom made for about £50

One of my main concerns, amusingly, is my bullbars! I have the full wrap-around bars, which appear to be in two main pieces, but these are bolted together. It seems that the top half is attached to the body, and the lower half to the chassis (can someone confirm...?) which I take it would mean that they would have to disconnect from each other and... possibly would have a spacer inserted? Not sure. Basically I don't want to ruin the look of my bars, or end up obscuring the headlights or anything!

Another thing is handling. My other car is an Audi TT 3.2 Quattro, which is also 4x4 but a big difference I actually find the Surf to be just as much fun to drive, and I love the contrast between the vehicles. I don't have an issue with the Surf's handling - after all, it is a big truck! - but I'm worried that raising by 5" might cause noticeably more body roll? The reason I mentioned my other car is so that readers understand that my other car IS a nice sports car, BUT that I'm not making mean comparisons. I don't expect (or want!) the Surf to feel or corner like the TT! But I also don't want to make the handling or cornering worse if I can help it! Mainly for safety reasons - I already feel like it might fall over at times (seriously - is that possible?!?). You may find the handling is in some ways better as you will be putting in new springs and shocks to replace the old knackered ones, The center of gravity will be raised though which will be noticable if you swerve or corner very hard (but you have the Audi for that)

My Surf suffers from saggy-bottom syndrome and so I think the rear shocks need replacing anyway. Plus the slow puncture in one tyre, and the not-so-great tread all around, makes it an ideal time to consider a lift. I don't really want to end up buying 31x10.50s but if the lift is a bad idea then that's what I'll do.

One more thing to note - I pull a trailer. I have a large (15'x6') trailer that I use to collect big logs, and so it's very heavy (the Surf pulls it like it isn't there!). Plus the missus wants a caravan at some point too. So, I imagine that if I raise the Surf by 5" I will have to drop the towbar by 5" too - does that mean some form of plate? How would I do it? Would it be just as strong and safe? Would the lift have any adverse effect on towing ability or safety?
Use a drop plate- lots do it

I understand that this has been a long post - especially for a first one - but it's been brewing for about four weeks while I have read, read, read, and tried to decide what to do! The primary reason to raise the Surf is to look what I think is cool (well, cooler) which is perhaps not the best reason but what the hey. I want MTs for the same reason - almost 100% of my use is on the road; I only go offroad to drag logs for collection (although the MTs will be useful there - currently I have ATs which aren't great at that). As the Surf is a secondary vehicle it will not get much mileage and I don't mind exta road noise or what not from the muds - it is, after all, a truck! If I want to be coddled or get somewhere more quickly I'll take the TT :P

Any advice will be very welcome - I'm sure I've read pretty much everything on the subject but there are a lot of opinions (the tyre chap said I only need a 2" lift!) and I respect the ones on this forum.

Welcome to the forum by the way!

[KERRSURF]

Get some manual hubs, saves a lot of CV boot changes.

[Scorpion]

If you haven't already seen it have a look at my truck pics in this post.....

http://www.hiluxsurf.co.uk/forums/sh...ad.php?t=55610

2" body lift and 2" suspension lift, fitted with 33" tyres. I've also got 30mm wheel spacers fitted, but they aren't really nessecary.

[The Lovely Boyo]

Hi Dan,

WOW - WHAT A LONG FIRST POST.

Lob a few quid into the fund before asking such massive questions - or - read the FAQ's!

You will find this to be the best Surf (Hilux Surf that is) forum in the UK - it has been for years - laid back, no flaming, mega helpful.

Welcome to the Madmouse - he squeeks........

Now you newbie - whats the red button for?????????????

[Apache]

You've been here a lot lately Andy. What's up? Landcrusher forum broke?

Re. handling. Dont expect it to handle anything like a Quattro (why didn't you buy a 3rd gen if you own a TT by the way?) or indeed anything like a car for that matter. Enjoy it for what it is, modify your driving style to suit a lumbering 15 year old, 2 tonne truck with crap brakes and you'll be fine.

Lifts, body & sus are dead easy BTW.

[Dodge]

Hi, and welcome


You might get 33s on with a 2" lift but you won't be going round corners, even with 5" I had to cut my mud flaps and pull them back and I still get a little rub now and again on the arch extensions on the front bumper.

The body lift is easier to do than the suspension lift, so if you think you can do the suspension the body will be a doddle.

How you do the suspension and tyre choice will somewhat depend on what you intend to do with the truck.

Unless you intend to spend more time off road than on I'd go for BFG All Terrains rather than Mud Terrains. I've just replaced my MTs and gone back to Ats, the grip in the wet on the road with MTs is like driving on ice, the ATs are confident off road in all but the muddiest of conditions and the drone of the Muds although fun to start will do your 'kin head in before you wear them out. Talking of wear, the BFGs wear a lot better then Kumhos, negating the cost saving.

Suspension travel is more of a consideration if you intend to do any aggressive off road driving. I went with LC springs for two reasons, they give 3" lift out of the box and they're made for a heavier vehicle so they'll be stiffer in the corners, something that might be of benefit if you do a lot of towing or do longer distances and brim the tank more often.

Longer shox aren't necessary for a 3" lift if you're not off roading, all longer shox will do is allow the suspension to drop more opposite the one you've stuffed into the arch going over a big rut or boulder.

You can also get away with not using extended brake hose if you're not doing serious off roading, just turn the outer 'P' clips over on the rear axle and fit a spacer on the one on the diff.

If you are off roading I'd suggest modding/replacing all of the above.

You need to remove the front bumper anyway so I'd remove you bull bar as well and do the lift, fit the bumper lift brackets then offer the bull bar up to see if and where is needs modding.

One other consideration is the radiator, once you've done the body lift the engine will be lower as it's attached to the chassis and the radiator will in effect be two inches higher. You'll need to remove the cowl on the radiator before you do the lift or the fan will hit it also as the radiator is now two inches higher it will have a two inch air lock in the top, so it's recomended that you fit rad drop brackets or make you own way of lowering it.

There are a couple of small pipes that run up the side of the radiator, not the water pipes, these will need the clips relocating or removing.

The brake bias load sensor, should be sorted out too, safest bet is a bracket to move it up to keep the rod level, or if you're feeling clever you can bend the rod!

Run the tank down beforehand, a tank of gas only adds to the weight when jacking and supporting.

As for a "how to", it's been covered here before and I'd suggest reading every one you can as they'll all offer something the others might miss.

Do the body first, more room or messing with the suspension.

Locate and spray with penetrating fluid all the nuts and bolts that hold the body to the chassis a day before you start and do it more than once to be sure.

You can get a drop plate for the tow bar, but if you tow a heavy trailer, particularly if it's off road, I'd weld some lengths of flat bar or angle to the back of it to bolt to the chassis so you don't just pull it up when you tow.

[Apache]

You might get 33s on with a 2" lift but you won't be going round corners, even with 5" I had to cut my mud flaps and pull them back and I still get a little rub now and again on the arch extensions on the front bumper.

Depends on the wheel offset, no probs with mine with -32 offset

Longer shox aren't necessary for a 3" lift if you're not off roading, all longer shox will do is allow the suspension to drop more opposite the one you've stuffed into the arch going over a big rut or boulder.

Dunno bout that. My OEM rear shocks were topped out permanently giving a somewhat backbreaking ride on the road and unbearable off road

One other consideration is the radiator, once you've done the body lift the engine will be lower as it's attached to the chassis and the radiator will in effect be two inches higher. You'll need to remove the cowl on the radiator before you do the lift or the fan will hit it also as the radiator is now two inches higher it will have a two inch air lock in the top, so it's recomended that you fit rad drop brackets or make you own way of lowering it.

Doesn't matter with a 3.0. Rad cap is on the radiator. It is an issue with the 2.4 though. Given the effort to make drop brackets though, iot seems silly not to - just so you can shut the bonnet if nowt else .

.

[Dodge]

Depends on the wheel offset, no probs with mine with -32 offset

Not on a 2" lift? Mine are deep dished, not sure of the off set, on full lock I'd get a little rubbing, not bodywork just the mud flaps, and the bumper bits were only on full lock in reverse.

Dunno bout that. My OEM rear shocks were topped out permanently giving a somewhat backbreaking ride on the road and unbearable off road

Really? That's a p!sser, I had read it might not be necessary to replace them if not doing serious off roading so I thought I'd try it and see. Mine handles like it's on rails, I love cornering hard, fast roundabouts and passing cars on curving slip roads etc. Better now with the ATs, with the muds I kept getting the back to step out, fun but not good for making rapid progress.

The only thing I didn't do, but intended to, was fit an extended panhard rod, it's not that much out of kilter, only noticeable if you're looking for it.

15 months of hard driving and still a pleasure to get behind the wheel, my only gripe is the motor, it barrels along at rude speeds but after driving my mates RR Sport I need a V8.

[Phantom]

Yeah go on lift it. The higher you go the worse the handling is. Mine has a 21" lift, and it handles great if you like driving an eight foot bucket of custard.

[slobodan]

Once you hear the rumble of the Mud terrains on the road, your balls will grow and you will never go back to the TT.

[Apache]

I thought you were talking about a 5" lift ?

Rob.

Me too.

Also Slobodan my old chum, after 6 months on agressive muds as my only tyre, my balls grew but only through bruising. Badass muds are shit on the road and I'd never use them as such again. I have two sets of wheels now, but the BFG ATs are on nearly all the time, and the muds barely get used.

[wishbone]

Hi Apache

Hehe by the time I'd tried to tidy my post (the quotes weren't working properly) you'd already replied. I deleted my post and re-wrote it but it went messy...

Anyhoo, did you decide on whos European breakdown cover to go with ?

Rob.