de Menezes - open verdict

[PC-Surf]

You're right there, but I still think a huge amount of blame rests on the shoulders of the media and government for overreacting to what is still a relatively tiny threat.

I don't think we will realise how much of a threat it is and has been until many years down the line.

My analogy (if that's spelt right?) is more to point out that this is one case that has been blown up by the media (rightly or wrongly). More people die due to drink driving or any other death that could have been prevented in many ways. I honestly don't have much of an opinion about all this because I don't know much about it. I'm not going to research it because regardless of what I know, think or say there is nothing I can do about it. As I said previously It hasn't effected me massively so as harsh as it may seem I'm not too interested in it. The only reason I entered into this is because it is a shame when you see a lot of people siding on one train of thought when in reality there honestly could be a number of reasons / outcomes. It may well have been entirely the fault of the Police and it would be easy for me to take their side and be biased. But it just amazes me that people who are not involved or directly effected in it or those that don't know every bit of informtion about it have such strong feelings and make such strong comments about it. Are you scared and actually worried about being shot by a Police Officer or similar?
Do you honestly care that much about the whole story?

[MattF]

As Tony mentioned above, the courts/jury system is the point. Whether those people who did the shooting were right or wrong is for the jury to decide. They couldn't because they didn't have a fair legal process in motion.

[PC-Surf]

As Tony mentioned above, the courts/jury system is the point. Whether those people who did the shooting were right or wrong is for the jury to decide. They couldn't because they didn't have a fair legal process in motion.

They certainly do bizzare things. I have never understood a lot of the processes and outcomes.

[fatfires]

As Tony mentioned above, the courts/jury system is the point. Whether those people who did the shooting were right or wrong is for the jury to decide. They couldn't because they didn't have a fair legal process in motion.

Hey Matt, am I going daft or what, I am sure that is more than once you have agreed with me without any verbal or insults lately.....I know it is the season of goodwill and all that but hey?
(I feel a new years resolution iminantly apearing!)

[Apache]

I'm not scared or worried about being shot by a copper, nor am I worried about being involved in a terrorism event. The odds of either are vanishingly small.

My point (though not the point of the original post, granted) is that these vanishingly small odds have been inflated by the media and the government to seem almost a racing certainty to happen to me.

I used to fly (on American or British carriers!) back and forth to the USA regularly. One flight was the tuesday following the 9/11 attacks (I seem to recall it was the first UK-USA transatlantic flight after the event), another was the very day of the 2nd invasion of Iraq. Oddly enough, I'm still here to tell about it. However, if I'd believed the media, I wouldn't have set foot out of my front door because I'd be CERTAIN to be killed by 'crazy ragheads'.

I still believe if there'd been a measured response to 9/11, rather than going in to Iraq all guns blazing with Uncle Sam's boot up our arse, and we'd adopted a rather more pragmatic foreign policy towards the the middle east, then we wouldn't have the raging xenophobic paranoia that leads to tragic errors such as the Menezes case. A mother wouldn't be grieving her son, and the copper who shot him wouldn't be waking soaked with sweat every night.

[Sancho]

Oooooh. I opened a bit of a can of worms. To clarify my views:

- I am disgusted that the jury were told that it couldn't be unlawful killing. I'm sure there is some kind of technical reason I don't get but, to me, you can't tell a jury that they can't find someone not guilty.

- I don't think that the police officers involved were racist, bigoted murderers, but they did shoot an innocent man and they did fail to identify themselves. Yes, they were told to, but they should have considered that there was nowhere he could have a bomb on him. Yes, they made a mistake and I'm sure they feel all the normal human emotions of guilt etc, but if I drive at 35 in a 30 zone, kill a child and go to court I was still speeding, regardless of whether I feel remorse, and I will still go to jail.

[soramad]

and if he had a belt full of c4 moulded round ball bearings and surrounded with 3" nails got into a carriage and exploded it,probably killing everyone in that carriage possibly derailing it and causing more carnage ,you would probbably now be debating why the police did'nt stop him when they had the chance, the decision was made, the action was taken, the police (or whoever) did the job they were told to do, and now you want to crucify them for doing it. wake up girls this is the modern world when kids blow up soldiers and a second can mean the difference between being behind a smoking gun or dead in front of it.

[Sancho]

and if he had a belt full of c4 moulded round ball bearings and surrounded with 3" nails got into a carriage and exploded it,probably killing everyone in that carriage possibly derailing it and causing more carnage ,you would probbably now be debating why the police did'nt stop him when they had the chance, the decision was made, the action was taken, the police (or whoever) did the job they were told to do, and now you want to crucify them for doing it. wake up girls this is the modern world when kids blow up soldiers and a second can mean the difference between being behind a smoking gun or dead in front of it.

Well, we are debating why they didn't stop him when he left his house, why they let him walk to the bus stop, why they let him get on a bus, why they let him get off the bus, why they let him walk to the tube, why they let him walk into the station, why they let him go through the barriers and why they let him on the train.

So actually, the police didn't stop him when they had the chance. They waited until he had the opportunity to kill even more people. So, even if he had a bomb, they still cocked up big time.

Incidentally, kids don't blow up soldiers in the UK, so maybe you need to get a handle on what's the real world and what's the Daily Mail.

[JUDWAK]

most info on the case and the people involed are here
http://www.liveleak.com/browse?q=de+...&search=Search

made good reading this thread
some good debating going on

[Apache]

Incidentally, kids don't blow up soldiers in the UK, so maybe you need to get a handle on what's the real world and what's the Daily Mail.

I was thinking that myself.

Basically, what's being said is its OK to kill an innocent of you *think* he might have a bomb even if the evidence from your own eyes suggests otherwise. Too many 'possibly' and 'maybe's in your argument.

He DIDN'T have a bomb (with all the paraphenalia you added for impact) nor was it likely he could have hidden one given what he was ACTUALLY wearing, as against what the police said he was wearing.

The procedural chain screwed up at every step - fact. They killed an innocemt man - fact. There are NOT terrorists around every corner, on every train / plane - fact. I know this contravene's what the Express and Mail tell us, but they have axes to grind.

Please everyone, stop being so paranoid. Terrorism exists, it always has (!) and likely always will. However, it isn't on the scale 'they' want us to believe, and you are more likely to win the lottery than be involved in an act of terrorism.

[Predictable Bob]

Incidentally, kids don't blow up soldiers in the UK, so maybe you need to get a handle on what's the real world and what's the Daily Mail.

That's a bit like saying on September 10th that people don't fly aircraft into buildings - it's perfectly true, but not for long ........

It doesn't take a lot to get impressionable kids involved in terrorism. If you go back to the late 60's & early 70's in NI there were plenty of kids throwing petrol bombs around then - and that was without much in the way of indoctrination

Don't get me wrong, I agree that there's a case to answer and that the direction to the jury at the inquest was wrong but please don't believe that we are immune to serious terrorist attacks in this country

[Sancho]

That's a bit like saying on September 10th that people don't fly aircraft into buildings - it's perfectly true, but not for long ........

It doesn't take a lot to get impressionable kids involved in terrorism. If you go back to the late 60's & early 70's in NI there were plenty of kids throwing petrol bombs around then - and that was without much in the way of indoctrination

Don't get me wrong, I agree that there's a case to answer and that the direction to the jury at the inquest was wrong but please don't believe that we are immune to serious terrorist attacks in this country

And that's a bit like saying that every living person is a potential terrorist so all children should be exterminated at birth.

Like Apache said, we've lived with terrorism for years, the worst of it domestic and the very worst of that from so-called 'loyalists'. I have friends who are in quite high up positions in the anti-terrorist section of the Met and they're working unbelievably hard to limit any threat to us. I can also tell you that they are all undergoing an awful lot more training on when and whom to shoot.

I'm not suggesting that individual officers should be strung up, I'm suggesting that the entire operation was a disaster and that every single person involved is responsbile in some way. In my view, the Met needed to come out straight afterwards, say "sorry, we cocked up horribly" and deal privately with the de Menezes family in sorting out whatever compensation, or other more appropriate amends, they could make.

[Apache]

That's a bit like saying on September 10th that people don't fly aircraft into buildings - it's perfectly true, but not for long ........

It doesn't take a lot to get impressionable kids involved in terrorism. If you go back to the late 60's & early 70's in NI there were plenty of kids throwing petrol bombs around then - and that was without much in the way of indoctrination

Don't get me wrong, I agree that there's a case to answer and that the direction to the jury at the inquest was wrong but please don't believe that we are immune to serious terrorist attacks in this country

It's also like saying on September the 12th people dont fly aircraft into buildings. They dont!

Of course we aren't immune to terrorist attacks. but when was the last one? And the one before that? And the one before that?

It's a bl00dy rare event, but the way some are going one you'd think you were risking life and limb every time we pop our heads up from behind the sandbags on the window sill! There was a program on telly a few months back when some kids were interviewed about terrorism, and some of them were shit scared! They were losing sleep! And for what???

I'm not joking when I tell you I was more at risk from the threat of tripping over my underwear when I got out of bed bleary eyed this morning, but no-one came in and shot my skiddies!

[gwh200]

no-one came in and shot my skiddies!

thats because they can walk themselves.



morning mr apache/sancho/bob....i have been following this thread avidly on me blackberry, and it has to be a really..if not the most well debated subject i have followed. i have no opinion to offer,other than all lessons learnt should be applied with immediate effect.

[Predictable Bob]

I can't disagree with you that terrorist attacks in the UK are mercifully rare BUT I would argue that that is largely the result of the efforts of the security services. A terrorist attack requires proper planning to be effective and it is only by constant vigilance that plots can be identified in their infancy.

As for the media - I'm with anybody that wants them hit hard when they start their scaremongering and vendettas !