Useless....

[MattF]

What is this ######## about arse kissing?

You play 'them' at their own game. You play by their rules. You suck it up until one day 'whoaaah!' you have the upper hand. You need to be smart but you dont get owt for nowt.

I just get the overriding impression (and I could be very wrong) that some people round these parts want things to arrive for them on a plate all wrapped and ready. It doesn't work like that. If you think its gonna work then you're living in some sort of fairyland.

Nope. The impression you should be getting is that some people would rather shovel sh1t for a living in the blackest hellhole than have to pucker up and become a yes boy for a worthless t0sser. Some would rather sacrifice financial gain and retain their dignity and morals rather than vice versa. Just because that's how the system generally works doesn't mean you have to play the game by their rules. I prefer dignity and morals, personally. And I still manage to pay the mortgage.

With regards to your initial question, btw, what you are implying is being an arse kisser.

[Apache]

Hmmmm... I dont think you're understanding me Matt.

That or you aint as smart as I had you pegged...

[BUSHWHACKER]

Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far.
Theodore Roosevelt.

[MattF]

Hmmmm... I dont think you're understanding me Matt.

That or you aint as smart as I had you pegged...

Which part am I missing? The only other possibility is that you ain't meaning that you suck upto them and play the game, but rather that you play the game and stab them in the back at the first opportunity. Both of those scenarios are highly commendable.

If their is a third slant I have missed, please enlighten as to what it is.

[Apache]

Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far.
Theodore Roosevelt.

I know many people for whom that approach works well. One of the guys I used to work for got a long way with it. Basically, be totally leakproof in your area of expertise. You dont need to shout then.

[BUSHWHACKER]

I know many people for whom that approach works well. One of the guys I used to work for got a long way with it. Basically, be totally leakproof in your area of expertise. You dont need to shout then.

Worked for me. (In a financial way rather than promotional)

[Apache]

Which part am I missing? The only other possibility is that you ain't meaning that you suck upto them and play the game, but rather that you play the game and stab them in the back at the first opportunity. Both of those scenarios are highly commendable.

If their is a third slant I have missed, please enlighten as to what it is.

Sigh...

OK. I'll use my own experiences. I'm a little tired so I might not be totally legible.

I worked for people I didn't like, or particularly agree with. However, the work I was doing was rather important. Peoples lives (literally) depended on it. The people above me didn't share the aims I had. However, they had the power to slap me down and basically stamp on what I was doing in order to further their own aims.

By your rules, rather than working with them, I should have thrown in the towl to preserve my own - what - righteousness?

What I did was worked to their rules, slowly pushing what I was doing through them to the people who REALLY mattered - the end user. Once I had convinced them I was on their side (not suberfuge, I really did believe in what I was doing) THEY were able to smooth my path with my superiors to such a level I was able to do my work without interference from the tw*ts above me.

This approach DID save lives (at least 16, but I cant really go into this on an open forum - I did PM you about my emotional issues leaving my last job for the sake of my own health ages ago) and if I'd not swallowed my pride and pretended to be 'one of them' I wouldn't have been able to do the work. If I'd just taken the attitude that 'I'm not gonna work by their rules' people in all probability would have died. So you see, I didn't *actually* kiss arse, nor did I stab the tw*ts in the back.

Its a sad situation when you've got ######s like that in positions of power who lose sight of what the aim is, but thats life.

[MattF]

Peoples lives (literally) depended on it. The people above me didn't share the aims I had. However, they had the power to slap me down and basically stamp on what I was doing in order to further their own aims.

By your rules, rather than working with them, I should have thrown in the towl to preserve my own - what - righteousness?

[.....snipped]

This approach DID save lives (at least 16, but I cant really go into this on an open forum - I did PM you about my emotional issues leaving my last job for the sake of my own health ages ago) and if I'd not swallowed my pride and pretended to be 'one of them' I wouldn't have been able to do the work. If I'd just taken the attitude that 'I'm not gonna work by their rules' people in all probability would have died. So you see, I didn't *actually* kiss arse, nor did I stab the tw*ts in the back.

In a way, you did. You may have used subtle means, but you did actually p1ss up their backs indirectly. Granted, it appears it was for a legitimate reason, but nonetheless, you did.

However, getting to the crux of what I mentioned earlier, you mention the emotional/health toll above which it incurred upon yourself. Looking at what you yourself have written above, would you still honestly advise Rod that the earlier advice which both you and Sancho gave is the correct advice? Is money really worth misery and suffering, both emotionally and physically?

Edit: The righteousness question. In all honesty to that one, I would say yes.

[Apache]

Do you think its really only been about money?

What about providing for your loved ones?

Ok...

Night!

[MattF]

Do you think its really about money?

Ok...

Night!

Last time I checked, Rod ain't in special employ, so in his case, yes.

[Apache]

Edit: The righteousness question. In all honesty to that one, I would say yes.

Then I hope you are never in a position of importance, cos you might just say 'f*ck it' and damn the rest of us to hell.

[BUSHWHACKER]

I think Rod needs a slap for starting this thread!

[MattF]

What about providing for your loved ones?

Catering for your edit here. A roof over ones head and food on the table is all that one *needs* to achieve in life. Everything else is a bonus and possibly something to aim for, but never the be all and end all. Money does not happiness make. One can provide a roof and meals with far more modest incomes and jobs, however.

[MattF]

Then I hope you are never in a position of importance, cos you might just say 'f*ck it' and damn the rest of us to hell.

If it went against a moral, then yes, I would.

[MattF]

I think Rod needs a slap for starting this thread!

Nah, Wod just needs a slap full stop. Gratuitous.