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**Ballibeg** · 16 March 2007, 16:36

Good to see someone in the dept using their brain. Keep us informed!

Dave

**legendgamesmaster** · 16 March 2007, 18:46

Originally posted by stormforce1067

He said that it's also wrong that we are penalised for using greener fuel.
As soon as i hear anything then i will let you all know

thats him sacked then.

by the way, the Sub is now running better than ever on biodiesel, economy down a bit, to be expected, but NO black smoke (er, its kinda grey now) and it doesnt choke me to death when the back window is down. I do feel huingry all the time though. mmmmmm..... donuts!

**paulh** · 16 March 2007, 19:03

Just having a discussion on a local forum about bio diesel can anyone give me a smart reply to this comment?

[quote]Apparently, for biodiesel to be "green" it needs to be from waste veg. oil. If crops are sown, grown, and harvested specifically for biodiesel, this generates so much carbon (tractors, combines etc) that it outweighs any advantage.]

Bo��ocks won't be good enough.

**MattF** · 16 March 2007, 19:26

[QUOTE=paulh]Just having a discussion on a local forum about bio diesel can anyone give me a smart reply to this comment?

Apparently, for biodiesel to be "green" it needs to be from waste veg. oil. If crops are sown, grown, and harvested specifically for biodiesel, this generates so much carbon (tractors, combines etc) that it outweighs any advantage.]

Bo��ocks won't be good enough.

Can see their point of view to a degree, but they have overstated somewhat. For one, any extra crops being grown specifically for the purpose would also negate a lot of the C02 created during their harvesting, if not more than that created. WVO is the "most" friendly one, but that is merely because it would otherwise be a waste product, and has already been harvested, but it is negated by the fact that conversion to biodiesel would also create extra C02, (using their argument), so the benefit is negated somewhat. True recycling, however, is the better option, so WVO would have the slight edge due to that simple regard.

**legendgamesmaster** · 16 March 2007, 19:41

[QUOTE=paulh]Just having a discussion on a local forum about bio diesel can anyone give me a smart reply to this comment?

Apparently, for biodiesel to be "green" it needs to be from waste veg. oil. If crops are sown, grown, and harvested specifically for biodiesel, this generates so much carbon (tractors, combines etc) that it outweighs any advantage.]

Bo��ocks won't be good enough.

Not sure about that though it is a possible scenario. I cant find any official figures for that carbon balance at present, but I guess its possibly not too far from the truth. Trouble is, Carbon Balance is virtually impossible to calculate properly without missing any carbon out, and you cant really compare carbon balances calculated by different people because they make different assumptions, include different parameters, go to different degrees of measurement...... DOH!

anyhow....

One problem with most biodiesel is that the esterification process requires methanol, which is usually made from fossil fuel (though you can get vegetable derived (i.e. fermented or pyrolysed) variety), so most biodiesel is NOT 100% carbon neutral.

Another issue is efficiency. Its less efficient to grow crops to make bio-ethanol/deisel than it is to grow them for FOOD. So it makes sense to use them for food (i.e. veggie oil to fry yer chips in) then convert the waste oil to fuel.

There is also a strong link with '3rd world' problems. Clearing forested land to grow sugar cane (eg brazil) or sending the price of corn sky high (mexico) to fuel the demand for biofuel (pun intended!)... Its not a cut n dried case. (see plenty of news.bbc.co.uk articles on this very subject at present)

Also of note: there is not enough land to produce enough crop to produce enough fuel for enough people! far more sensible to use land to grow food. We should be looking at alternative energy sources that dont impact on our ability to feed ourselves. (in danger of hijacking the thread here)

The point of using waste veggie oil is at least Three fold:

1) you save a waste from going to landfill - its a product that has been used already, so you are getting the best use out of it - you greatly reduce its carbon footprint by using it twice.

2) you dont pump out as much pollution - mainly water, carbon dioxide and a small amoutn of nitrogen oxides. No sulpher dioxide to speak of and virtually none of the nasty heavy fuel derived organics (the stuff that gives deisel fumes the smell) that are carcinogenic (IIRC)

3) you dont use fossil carbon - you are carbon neutral in the present tense. (remember that burning fossil carbon is also carbon neutral in the LONG TERM: i.e. the beasties / trees that make the oil took their carbon from the atmosphere a LONG time ago!)

Its interesting to note that the two biodiesel producers I know both sell veggie oil to the catering companies that they collect from, and say they couldnt survive without being a seller of veggie oil as well as a seller of biofuel.

So, sorry not to answer the question, but its an interesting subject.

Why do I run on biodeisel?

It reduces waste
It smells nicer
It pollutes less
Ive got a Surf and therefore I CAN!!!

**paulh** · 16 March 2007, 21:31

[Quote]Apparently, for biodiesel to be "green" it needs to be from waste veg. oil. If crops are sown, grown, and harvested specifically for biodiesel, this generates so much carbon (tractors, combines etc) that it outweighs any advantage[Quote].

Well I got out of it by saying "Not if the tractors are running on veg oil"
HeeHee Chicken or Egg

**max6674** · 16 March 2007, 21:46

Originally posted by legendgamesmaster

Why do I run on biodeisel?

Ive got a Surf and therefore I CAN!!!

Thats why I run mine on cooking oil.. cos I can!

Are you putting it into your main tank or do you have a secondary ?

**MRab2** · 22 March 2007, 14:24

Waste vegetable oil is obviously the ideal fuel from an ecological point of view. I'd go as far as to say it's an extremely sound environmental idea even if they threw in a few additives to reduce the chippy smell.

Isn't that was the environmental movement is all about? Reducing waste?

I'm assuming the 27p/litre tax on biodiesel applies even if the fuel is 2nd hand. Can anyone confirm this?

**That Ruddy Squirrel** · 22 March 2007, 19:51

Originally posted by MRab2

Waste vegetable oil is obviously the ideal fuel from an ecological point of view. I'd go as far as to say it's an extremely sound environmental idea even if they threw in a few additives to reduce the chippy smell.

Isn't that was the environmental movement is all about? Reducing waste?

I'm assuming the 27p/litre tax on biodiesel applies even if the fuel is 2nd hand. Can anyone confirm this?

Until the autumn (thanks GB

) it's not 27p it's 28.35p

then it will go up to at least 30p

**stormforce** · 23 March 2007, 16:47

For those of you that live down this end of Cornwall the new Tesco at Pool is now selling KTC veggie oil at �8.40 for 15l and should be the lower duty rate aswell

**leo's dad** · 23 March 2007, 23:03

rate of duty svo

when i phoned customs they told me 44p a litre duty for svo and wvo, the lower rate only applied to bio diesel (the type thats had some chemical doo da done to it) just bunging in svo/wvo to mix in your tank with derv is taxed as a fuel substitue and therefore doesn't qualify for the reduced rate and must be taxed at the same rate as the fuel you're substituting it for.

so of course i'm paying the higher rate for every drop I use.....

**coolsv650** · 24 March 2007, 00:41

Originally posted by leo's dad

when i phoned customs they told me 44p a litre duty for svo and wvo, the lower rate only applied to bio diesel (the type thats had some chemical doo da done to it) just bunging in svo/wvo to mix in your tank with derv is taxed as a fuel substitue and therefore doesn't qualify for the reduced rate and must be taxed at the same rate as the fuel you're substituting it for.

so of course i'm paying the higher rate for every drop I use.....

Have a look at this link Http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsP...E_PROD1_026425

I found it when I was looking for the small producer stuff the other day. If I read it right they intend to include SVO & WVO in the lower amount of duty after some people have been getting the reduced rate and some not

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