How Bigs The Fine

[BUSHWHACKER]

it,s upto a thousand pound on the spot fine your car taken off you there and then and the tax must be back dated since you owned the car and in extreme cases prison rather stick to normal deisel

More EXTREME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TonyN]

Its no hassle to get registered with C&E to run veg, and then its nothing to worry about.

[jackster]

Just got this from C & E website:-

5.1 Offences and penalties
Offence

Penalty


If you:



misuse or supply oil (other than fully duty paid fuel) for use as fuel in a road vehicle;
misuse or supply rebated kerosene for use to propel an excepted vehicle or as fuel in an engine (other than to provide heating); or
mix any rebated or duty free oil with any oil on which no rebate has been allowed.
A penalty of £250 may be imposed for each offence and the duty rebate recovered.



In all cases, your vehicle (or engine) may be seized and forfeited.



The penalty and duty rebate may be secured as part of the restoration amount for the seized vehicle or by the issue of a fixed civil penalty and Notice of Assessment.



If your conduct involves dishonesty, a penalty of up to 100% of the duty evaded may be imposed.


If you:



remove any designated chemical marker of dye from any fuel; or
add any substance to the fuel to prevent the chemical marker from being identified.
A penalty of £250 may be imposed for each offence.



The goods and oil may be seized and forfeited.



The penalty may be secured as part of the restoration amount for the items seized or by the issue of a fixed civil penalty.


If you obstruct one of our officers inspecting premises or vehicles or testing or sampling oil.

An unlimited fine or imprisonment for up to two years, or both.



In the more serious cases involving dishonesty criminal action may be taken, and you can be fined an unlimited amount or you may be imprisoned for up to seven years, or both


Does`nt sound as thretening as some would say,Which again makes me believe that they make there own fines up

[CaptainBeaky]

That is a very "Bloke in pub" kinda statement, the dye they use to stain the diesel is added in parts per million, and not many parts. Taken it with a pinch of salt rumours such as these.

The red dye is CI Solvent Red 24. Added at 5-10ppm. Detectable with the naked eye at down to 10-20% of original concentration.
BUT - and this is a big but, what is also added is CI Solvent Yellow 124, at 6ppm (required by EU law). This is yellow at neutral pH, but turns bright red at low pH (ie acid).
It is also very easy to extract from the fuel and concentrate up for easier estimation (by phase extraction into an acid aqueous phase).
Hence the test is very sensitive, and can pick up traces of the dye long after you can't see it with the naked eye. apparently down to 2% of the original level.

Even if you refill your tank at 90% empty:
1st tank - 10% of original level - easily detectable
2nd tank - 1% of original level - borderline
3rd tank - 0.1% - probably not detectable.

If you fill up at 1/3 full -
1st tank - 33% of original level - easily detectable
2nd tank - 10% of original level - easily detectable
3rd tank - 3% - easily detectable
4th tank - 1% of original level - borderline detectable
5th tank - 0.3% of original level - borderline
6th tank - 0.1% - probably not detectable.

If you fill up at 1/2 full -
1st tank - 50% of original level - easily detectable
2nd tank - 25% of original level - easily detectable
3rd tank - 12% - easily detectable
4th tank - 6% of original level - easily detectable
5th tank - 3% of original level - easily detectable
6th tank - 1.5% - probably detectable
7th tank - 0.75% of original level - borderline detectable
8th tank - 0.38 of original level - borderline detectable
9th tank - 0.2 - borderline detectable
10th tank - 0.1% - probably not detectable.

So yes, you can detect the presence of red diesel after quite a few tankfuls of "normal", horrendously taxed diesel, and no, it isn't an urban myth.

And yes, I'm a chemist!

[openback]

good answer! have a friend a work that may need to know this, now how long 'till veg oil's out of the system?

[kazam401]

Even if you refill your tank at 90% empty:
1st tank - 10% of original level - easily detectable
2nd tank - 1% of original level - borderline
3rd tank - 0.1% - probably not detectable.

Great info................1 tank of red to every 3 tanks of 70% taxed normal....do I feel lucky....punk?????

I have a source of red priced at about 30-35p p/l (last time I asked) depending on where and when i am likely to be travelling it's got to be worth thinking about. The only place I know of round here where c&e have been dipping tanks has been on local farm car boot sale on sunday mornings which is somewhere I avoid at all costs.

I think part of the urban myth was if you run any red it will stain all future diesel and internal parts allowing detection at any time in the future....which as you have shown in your excellent information is not the case.

[jackster]

The red dye is CI Solvent Red 24. Added at 5-10ppm. Detectable with the naked eye at down to 10-20% of original concentration.
BUT - and this is a big but, what is also added is CI Solvent Yellow 124, at 6ppm (required by EU law). This is yellow at neutral pH, but turns bright red at low pH (ie acid).
It is also very easy to extract from the fuel and concentrate up for easier estimation (by phase extraction into an acid aqueous phase).
Hence the test is very sensitive, and can pick up traces of the dye long after you can't see it with the naked eye. apparently down to 2% of the original level.

Even if you refill your tank at 90% empty:
1st tank - 10% of original level - easily detectable
2nd tank - 1% of original level - borderline
3rd tank - 0.1% - probably not detectable.

If you fill up at 1/3 full -
1st tank - 33% of original level - easily detectable
2nd tank - 10% of original level - easily detectable
3rd tank - 3% - easily detectable
4th tank - 1% of original level - borderline detectable
5th tank - 0.3% of original level - borderline
6th tank - 0.1% - probably not detectable.

If you fill up at 1/2 full -
1st tank - 50% of original level - easily detectable
2nd tank - 25% of original level - easily detectable
3rd tank - 12% - easily detectable
4th tank - 6% of original level - easily detectable
5th tank - 3% of original level - easily detectable
6th tank - 1.5% - probably detectable
7th tank - 0.75% of original level - borderline detectable
8th tank - 0.38 of original level - borderline detectable
9th tank - 0.2 - borderline detectable
10th tank - 0.1% - probably not detectable.

So yes, you can detect the presence of red diesel after quite a few tankfuls of "normal", horrendously taxed diesel, and no, it isn't an urban myth.

And yes, I'm a chemist!

Crikey, alot of detail there.
I don`t suppose being a chemist that you are,that you`ve tried to remove the red dye and keep the necessary amounts oy yellow??
Now that would be good

[CaptainBeaky]

Crikey, a lot of detail there.
I don`t suppose being a chemist that you are,that you`ve tried to remove the red dye and keep the necessary amounts of yellow??
Now that would be good

Methinks you are missing the point here somewhat - the red dye is there to act as an immediate indicator, so you can tell the difference between a can of red diesel and a can of normal diesel.
The yellow dye is there as a tracer - it is easily extracted and concentrated from a sample, and in the process treated to create a very strong colour. This gives a very sensitive test for the presence of the naughty diesel in your tank, thus enabling the C&E to roll their penalty dice!
Theoretically, it is easy to extract the yellow dye - just shake the diesel up with an equal volume of dilute acid, then allow the phases to separate. The yellow dye will then have transferred to the aqueous phase (the acid), and will have turned bright red. Separate the diesel by pouring off, then repeat at least twice more.
To save on your acid consumption, use the residue from the "3rd rinse" to do the next "1st rinse".
You should now be left with a volume of cleaned diesel, substantially free from the telltale dye.
Er, oh, and you will also have 3-4 times that volume of bright red, acidic residue. Put this down the drain, and the water authority will have a fit!

Bottom line - it is NOT viable to remove the dye!

[surfoffroad]

Veg Oil

There is no duty or need to register for straight veg oil up to 2500 litre per year. (go to diesel veg website for info and links to C&E site.


I would not use any other at the game fair C&E told me 6 years of tax and it is up to you to disprove with recipts etc

[joker??]

There is no duty or need to register for straight veg oil up to 2500 litre per year. (go to diesel veg website for info and links to C&E site.


I would not use any other at the game fair C&E told me 6 years of tax and it is up to you to disprove with recipts etc

lol

[The Lovely Boyo]

Errrrrrrr,

Check out the dates of the thread Newb!

[MudSurfer]

Errrrrrrr,

Check out the dates of the thread Newb!

"Let's do the time warp again......"

[jockthelad]

I'm told there's also a yellow marker added to central heating oil.
Personally I couldn't take the risk. I've already been warned that if I get any more points on my licence, they'll revoke my firearm certificate (I've had 3 points in 32 years) due to my blatent disregard for the law!!!!!.
Result...many thousands worth of rifles up the swannie. They've really got me by the wedding vegetables.
Ed

[Scorpion]

Errrrrrrr,

Check out the dates of the thread Newb!

Wow, not such a newbie. He's been a member since Sept 2004 and only 22 posts!

Can you believe it BDT2? You'd be topping 100,000 by now!

[YoungOffroader]

Ive had my tank dipped twice and theve picked up red in my tank but ive come off clean both times, i use to drive the truck soley offroad and it was sorn for 6 months and in that time it was on red but i still used red for few months after aswell but know wen its dipped i jus say well it was sorn and used offroad with red and because you can proove a vehicle was sorn and the dye stays through out the entire fuel and exhaust system for months i was scott free. if u can use red on offroad centres i might try that one if it gets to the point where i cant afford the regular stuff again