Veg oil fuel ??

[Silver Surfer]

Bunker oil which big ships run on is like thick black goo, and has to be pre-heated before it will burn, so there must be commercially available fuel heaters, although they may be on the large side. 30.000 tonnes v 3 tons?? Try a marine engines site for fuel warming bits.

John

[carbonman]

Im running a 2.4td and am going to take the plunge
I have sourced a nice local wholesaler of veg oil which will cost me in the lo 40'p per litre bulk.
I just have a couple of final questions before I go for it.

1)People have spoken of putting the veg oil in before the diesel so when you put the other 50% of diesel in it mixes it up.... are you putting the oil in at the fuel station? or at home, and if so are you ok running it to the fuel station on such a high mix of veg oil..? Does that make sense?

2)Any one know the capacity of the 2.4SSR-G 2nd Gen fuel tank. If im gonna do a 50-50 mix I need to know how much veg oil will fill me up half way.

3)Whats the worse case scenario if it goes wrong? Coked injectors, broken fuel pump, anything else i have overlooked... just want to factor in backup plan.

4)Those of you using it, how are you disposing of your old veg oil containers?

Thanks all
See you on the other side!!!

[Guest]

Im running a 2.4td and am going to take the plunge
I have sourced a nice local wholesaler of veg oil which will cost me in the lo 40'p per litre bulk.
I just have a couple of final questions before I go for it.

1)People have spoken of putting the veg oil in before the diesel so when you put the other 50% of diesel in it mixes it up.... are you putting the oil in at the fuel station? or at home, and if so are you ok running it to the fuel station on such a high mix of veg oil..? Does that make sense?

2)Any one know the capacity of the 2.4SSR-G 2nd Gen fuel tank. If im gonna do a 50-50 mix I need to know how much veg oil will fill me up half way.

3)Whats the worse case scenario if it goes wrong? Coked injectors, broken fuel pump, anything else i have overlooked... just want to factor in backup plan.

4)Those of you using it, how are you disposing of your old veg oil containers?

Thanks all
See you on the other side!!!

The capacity of the fuel tank is either 55 or 65 litres, I think mine is 65 litres. Used to think it was 55 litres but ran it to the light yesterday and put in 56 litres and when the lamp comes on it is supposed to be 10 litres left.

Worst case I think will be bad starting if you put too much in. On aq hot day you shouldn't have a problem but on a cold day it will be like the old diesel days when it waxed up and wouldn't flow. That's the reason for a fuel heater on a motor running 100% vegoil, thins the oil down enough to flow through the engine and spray out of the injectors rather than coming out in a lump

If it's thick the pump might have more trouble pulling it through so I guess the pump may in theory have more stress and wear out quicker, however I doubt very much that is the case.

In the case of filling it up, just don't run below about 1/3 full and put the vegoil in. Then top up with Diesel. I think that the vegoil would sink to the bottom being more dense than the Diesel so toping off with Diesel is more likely to help it mix. Don't think it will be much of a problem though as long as you don't run it completely empty and then fill with vegoil.

I'd get rid of the containers down the local bottle bank if it has a plastic bin - that way the binmen won't get suspicious - either that or take it to the local council tip.

Cheers

[Morr]

Im running a 2.4td and am going to take the plunge
I have sourced a nice local wholesaler of veg oil which will cost me in the lo 40'p per litre bulk.
I just have a couple of final questions before I go for it.

1)People have spoken of putting the veg oil in before the diesel so when you put the other 50% of diesel in it mixes it up.... are you putting the oil in at the fuel station? or at home, and if so are you ok running it to the fuel station on such a high mix of veg oil..? Does that make sense?

2)Any one know the capacity of the 2.4SSR-G 2nd Gen fuel tank. If im gonna do a 50-50 mix I need to know how much veg oil will fill me up half way.

3)Whats the worse case scenario if it goes wrong? Coked injectors, broken fuel pump, anything else i have overlooked... just want to factor in backup plan.

4)Those of you using it, how are you disposing of your old veg oil containers?

Thanks all
See you on the other side!!!

I usually let the tank run down to just before the low fuel light comes on, reading nearly empty. Then add the fuel before going to filling station to top up. In my case the nearest station is lest than 1/4 mile away so there's plenty of the existing mix in the lines and filter etc to get me there before it starts drawing on the higher concentrated mix of veggie.

If you get too much pure veggie in the lines and it won't start, pour hot water over the fuel lines/filter/system in the engine bay or use a hairdryer on same, this should reduce the viscosity enough to allow starting.
It is possible that the injectors could coke up but this does not seem to be a proble which affects Toyota's.

Again as I always say, follow the links, do your own research on the net etc. Satisfy yourself before starting this that you understand what is involved. I'm happy to offer my experience, but you must ultimatly make the descision regarding your own vehicle.

[carbonman]

I usually let the tank run down to just before the low fuel light comes on, reading nearly empty. Then add the fuel before going to filling station to top up. In my case the nearest station is lest than 1/4 mile away so there's plenty of the existing mix in the lines and filter etc to get me there before it starts drawing on the higher concentrated mix of veggie.

If you get too much pure veggie in the lines and it won't start, pour hot water over the fuel lines/filter/system in the engine bay or use a hairdryer on same, this should reduce the viscosity enough to allow starting.
It is possible that the injectors could coke up but this does not seem to be a proble which affects Toyota's.

Again as I always say, follow the links, do your own research on the net etc. Satisfy yourself before starting this that you understand what is involved. I'm happy to offer my experience, but you must ultimatly make the descision regarding your own vehicle.

thanks guys, have done some research and reckon its a goer.
Will let you know how I get on.
Cheers

[MrHankey]

Was having a think about running a 50/50 mix and started wondering whether HM Customs charged a lower duty for "fuel additives", and whether the vegoil could be classed as an "additive" if used as a 50/50 mix? Found this info on the customs and excise site

It has recently come to Customs’ attention that there is some confusion over the excise duty treatment of products which are added to motor fuel. The products in question are various in type and include such things as fuel system cleaners, injector cleaners, fuel conditioners and biocides. All such products are added into the fuel supply of vehicles either via the filler cap or via various parts of the fuel system, for example the carburettor.

However, the way the product is added to the motor fuel does not affect its duty liability. Nor does whether it is poured, injected or sprayed.The position can be summarised as follows:

"Any product added to motor fuel which is not 100 per cent hydrocarbon oil, as defined in section 1(2) of the Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1979 (HODA), is considered by the Commissioners to be for use as an additive in that motor fuel and will be subject to excise duty under section 6A of HODA.

The duty rate shall be determined by what sort of engine the product is designed to be used in. So, products designed for use in a diesel engine shall attract the ULSD rate; products designed for an unleaded petrol engine shall attract the ULSP rate; and products designed for use in leaded petrol engines shall attract the light oil rate. Products designed to be multi-purpose shall attract the ULSP rate.

Any product which is 100 per cent hydrocarbon oil and is used solely for lubrication is exempt from excise duty."

Ok so bad idea - biodeisel tax is much lower than the ULSD rate. BUT... (and here i maybe clutching at straws).....

Ok bear with me - now i remember reading a thread about how City Deisel was bad for your engine because it didnt provide enough lubrication, and other people agreed that modern low sulphur deisel fuels are recognised as having poorer lubrication properties etc etc - sooooo, could it be argued that you are using a 50/50 mix as an additive specifically for its lubrication properties? Therefore "Any product which is 100 per cent hydrocarbon oil and is used solely for lubrication is exempt from excise duty." would apply?

[Morr]

..... Therefore "Any product which is 100 per cent hydrocarbon oil and is used solely for lubrication is exempt from excise duty." would apply?

I'm no chemist, but I belive that Vegoils are classified as Metyl-esters, not hydrocarbons

[MrHankey]

ah well, just a thought, just seems a lot of hassle to pay the tax man so much for something that seems to have so much benefit!

[Morr]

ah well, just a thought, just seems a lot of hassle to pay the tax man so much for something that seems to have so much benefit!

Time to lobby you MP's, EU law permits biodiesel (& methyl-esters also I think) to be zero rated for duty in view of their environmental benefits. At least the UK gov has a reduced rate for these, here in Ireland its treated identically to DinoDiesel!

[carbonman]

Well I have taken the plunge and started a 50/50 mix the other day on a long run i had to do.
Worked like a treat!
Gonna keep doing it and try to find cheaper veg oil suppliers, cheapest locally is lidl @ 46p/litre must be able to get it wholesale tho....

Just a question. When I start her up in the morning, she is a bit smokey and lumpy, soon flattens out and runs fine. Is this normal, or might it indicate some much in the fuel filter?

Cheers guys

[Morr]

Well I have taken the plunge and started a 50/50 mix the other day on a long run i had to do.
Worked like a treat!
Gonna keep doing it and try to find cheaper veg oil suppliers, cheapest locally is lidl @ 46p/litre must be able to get it wholesale tho....

Just a question. When I start her up in the morning, she is a bit smokey and lumpy, soon flattens out and runs fine. Is this normal, or might it indicate some much in the fuel filter?

Cheers guys

Could be due to temp, altough I expect you're having good weather like here at present, approx 16/20C during the day, nights not below 10C, so that should be fine. Are you due a service? A partially blocked (ie old) fuel filter may hinder the flow of veggie when cold.

[carbonman]

Could be due to temp, altough I expect you're having good weather like here at present, approx 16/20C during the day, nights not below 10C, so that should be fine. Are you due a service? A partially blocked (ie old) fuel filter may hinder the flow of veggie when cold.

Yeah, the temp here is pretty good at the moment.
Last service was about 3500 miles ago, so due a oil change, but not specifically a fuel filter as that was done 3500 miles ago.. but I do have one, so could change that if its suspected that that "might" be the reason.
Like I said, its not really a problem per say, as after a good rev its fine. Just lots of smoke and initially lumpy.
Cheers

[Koi]

[QUOTE=MrHankey]
The duty rate shall be determined by what sort of engine the product is designed to be used in. So, products designed for use in a diesel engine shall attract the ULSD rate; products designed for an unleaded petrol engine shall attract the ULSP rate; and products designed for use in leaded petrol engines shall attract the light oil rate. Products designed to be multi-purpose shall attract the ULSP rate.
[\QUOTE]

Is there a wording issure here, it says 'determined by what engine it was designed for' my veggie oil was designed to cook me chips in.

[Morr]

[QUOTE=Koi]

The duty rate shall be determined by what sort of engine the product is designed to be used in. So, products designed for use in a diesel engine shall attract the ULSD rate; products designed for an unleaded petrol engine shall attract the ULSP rate; and products designed for use in leaded petrol engines shall attract the light oil rate. Products designed to be multi-purpose shall attract the ULSP rate.
[\QUOTE]

Is there a wording issure here, it says 'determined by what engine it was designed for' my veggie oil was designed to cook me chips in.

Dunno bout wording issues, could be... but many longtime UK vegoilers have already been thru this. Originally when the UK gov reduced the duty on biodiesel, most customs offices refused to accept that vegoil should be treated the same. Over time they seem to have clarified this and I believe most if not all not accept that it too qualifies at the same rate as biodiesel. I assume that they judge that once you put it in your diesel engine it becomes "designed for use in a diesel engine" but attracts the reduced rate.

[Vagrant No2]

Dunno bout wording issues, could be... but many longtime UK vegoilers have already been thru this. Originally when the UK gov reduced the duty on biodiesel, most customs offices refused to accept that vegoil should be treated the same. Over time they seem to have clarified this and I believe most if not all not accept that it too qualifies at the same rate as biodiesel. I assume that they judge that once you put it in your diesel engine it becomes "designed for use in a diesel engine" but attracts the reduced rate.

I was just wondering what the difference is for using new veg oil to using old veg oil , appart from having to strain the bits of chips and fish batter out .Is there any difference due to the oil having been heated severel times previous ?.
This is not a joke question , I have been following this thread for a while as is good subject .

Rick