Friendly help wanted! Before I desolder the rear window relays...

[Sylux]

...if the front switch works up and down...could it still be the relay that's stopping the key working the down?

Only 4 ways to open and close the window:

1: Up - Front Switch ✓
2: Down - Front Switch✓
3: Up - Rear Key ✓
4: Down - Rear Key x

I've identified the down relay using a couple of pics from here (like Kerrsurf's and here). And I'm about to get cracking on replacing.

I've exhausted all other avenues (dismantled and cleaned the key mech, traced the wiring etc).

BUT it makes no sense to me that the relay could be the issue IF the front switch operates the window fine. Unless the front is on a different circuit...which it doesn't look like it is at all.

Modern day advice would be awesome as most other threads don't have the down key issue. It's usually one of the others.

tl;dr: Is it still possible the relay is the issue if the front switch operates the window fine?

Edit for searchers: This thread does not receive and answer to the relay question. But I have pretty much deduced that if the up and down works with one control device (back or front switch)...then your relay is fine. See the thread for my links to wiring diagrams etc. They helped me find the exact wire that was the issue. Not the relay.

[s car go]

Had the same problem,although I can't remenber if the key would not work down or up! It was the little switch on the back of the lock barrel.The switch wears out or the wires get sheared off!

Regards

Mark

[Team Japan]

BUT it makes no sense to me that the relay could be the issue IF the front switch operates the window fine. Unless the front is on a different circuit...which it doesn't look like it is at all.

I don't know the details of how it's wired, but I was thinking the same. Unless there are separate relays for the interior switch and the key switch, the fact that the interior switch works shows that the relay works. It sounds to me like the fault is in the key switch or the wiring to it.

Can you get hold of a probe or a mulitimeter to test the continuity of the switch, or the presence of power at the terminals on the back of it?

[Sylux]

I've exhausted all other avenues (dismantled and cleaned the key mech, traced the wiring etc).

It's not the switch. Mine's surprisingly as new inside.

Just trying to ascertain whether the relay can be blamed if it works fine on the front switch.

I have all the wiring stuff for the Surf and this part explains the function of both switches.

2. REAR POWER WINDOW MANUAL OPERATION (REAR POWER WINDOW SW)

WHEN THE REAR POWER WINDOW SW IS PUSHED TO THE UP SIDE (WITH THE IGNITION SW ON AND THE BACK DOOR CLOSED),
AN “ON” SIGNAL IS INPUT FROM TERMINAL 5 OF THE WINDOW SW TO TERMINAL 7 OF REAR POWER WINDOW AND REAR WIPER
CONTROL RELAY. THUS, THE RELAY IS ACTIVATED AND THE CURRENT TO TERMINAL 4 OF RELAY FLOWS TERMINAL 3 OF RELAY
TO GROUND SO THAT THE CURRENT TO REAR POWER WINDOW MOTOR FLOWS FROM TERMINAL 4 OF POWER WINDOW AND
REAR WIPER CONTROL RELAY " TERMINAL 5 " TERMINAL 1 OF REAR POWER WINDOW MOTOR " TERMINAL 2 " TERMINAL 16
OF REAR POWER WINDOW AND REAR WIPER CONTROL RELAY " TERMINAL 3 " TO GROUND. THIS CAUSES THE REAR POWER
WINDOW MOTOR TO ROTATE TOWARD THE UP SIDE AND THE WINDOW ASCENDS ONLY WHILE THE REAR POWER WINDOW SW IS
BEING PUSHED.

TO LOWER THE WINDOW, THE SIGNAL INPUT FROM TERMINAL 1 OF REAR POWER WINDOW SW TO TERMINAL 6 OF POWER
WINDOW AND REAR WIPER CONTROL RELAY CAUSES CURRENT TO THE REAR POWER WINDOW MOTOR TO FLOW FROM
TERMINAL 4 OF REAR POWER WINDOW AND REAR WIPER CONTROL RELAY " TERMINAL 16 " TERMINAL 2 OF REAR POWER
WINDOW MOTOR " TERMINAL 1 " TERMINAL 5 OF REAR POWER WINDOW AND REAR WIPER CONTROL RELAY " TERMINAL 3 "
TO GROUND, SO THE CURRENT FLOWS IN THE REVERS DIRECTION TO MANUAL UP OPERATION AND CAUSES THE MOTOR TO
ROTATE IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION, THUS LOWERING THE WINDOW.
WHEN THE REAR WINDOW LOCK SW IS PUSHED THE LOCK SIDE, THE GROUND CIRCUIT OF THE REAR POWER WINDOW SW
BECOMES OPEN. THUS EVEN IF THE DRIVER OPERATES THE OPEN/CLOSE FUNCTION OF THE REAR WINDOW, THE REAR
WINDOW WILL NOT OPERATE BECAUSE THE REAR POWER WINDOW AND REAR WIPER CONTROL RELAY DOES NOT RECEIVE THE
ON SIGNAL AND THE REAR POWER WINDOW AND REAR WIPER CONTROL RELAY DOES NOT OPERATE.

3. REAR POWER WINDOW MANUAL OPERATION (BACK DOOR CONTROL SW)

WHEN THE BACK DOOR CONTROL SW IS PUSHED TO THE UP SIDE A SIGNAL IS INPUT TO TERMINAL 9 OF THE REAR POWER
WINDOW AND REAR WIPER CONTROL RELAY FROM TERMINAL 1 OF THE SW. THIS ACTIVATES THE RELAY REGARDLESS OF
WHETHER THE IGNITION SW IS ON OR OFF, AND THE CURRENT FLOWS FROM TERMINAL 4 OF REAR POWER WINDOW AND REAR
WIPER CONTROL RELAY TO TERMINAL 3. SO THE CURRENT TO THE REAR POWER WINDOW MOTOR FLOWS TO TERMINAL 4 OF
REAR POWER WINDOW AND REAR WIPER CONTROL RELAY " TERMINAL 5 " TERMINAL 1 OF REAR POWER WINDOW MOTOR "
TERMINAL 2 " TERMINAL 16 OF REAR POWER WINDOW CONTROL RELAY " TERMINAL 3 " TO GROUND AND CAUSES THE REAR
POWER MOTOR TO ROTATE IN THE UP DIRECTION SO THE WINDOW ASCENDS ONLY WHILE THE BACK DOOR CONTROL SW IS
BEING PUSHED TO LOWER THE WINDOW.

THE ON SIGNAL OF THE CONTROL SW (ROTATE TO DOWN SIDE) IS INPUT TO TERMINAL
17, CAUSING THE CURRENT TO THE MOTOR TO FLOW TO TERMINAL 4 OF REAR POWER WINDOW AND REAR WIPER CONTROL
RELAY " TERMINAL 16 " TERMINAL 2 OF REAR POWER WINDOW MOTOR " TERMINAL 1 " TERMINAL 5 OF REAR POWER
WINDOW AND REAR WIPER CONTROL RELAY " TERMINAL 3 " TO GROUND. THIS FLOW IS THE REVERSE OF MANUAL UP, SO THE
MOTOR ROTATES IN THE REVERSE DIRECTION AND THE WINDOW IS LOWERED.

They both basically use the same terminals for operation so I'm not convinced it is the relay. But they do use different input terminals :/

[Sylux]

Pic:

http://i.imgur.com/QQMV5lN.jpg

Best not to embed it as it's very long

[Sylux]

Looks to me like the control switch (key) goes through the exact same route as the power switch (front switch) as far as page 123 is concerned. So if the really was busted...neither would work.

That's my take on it. If any circuit experts can see differently...would love to know.

Page 122 shows terminal 17 on the issue side of the control switch (key). Hmmm...



I may play with some fresh wires to terminals etc before desoldering. What looks ok could be corroded inside, I guess. 2-17 will be my start

[markjd]

Have you tested on the back of the key switch? There are only 3 wires so guessing one is a permanent and the other two for the up/ down operation so if you take the key switch out of the equation and bridge between the wires to see if it works? You can either find the problem or rule the switch out.

[Sylux]

I took the key out visually (inspection insides, contacts and wires)...but not tested it out of the equation. Daft, really.

Which is why:

I may play with some fresh wires to terminals etc before desoldering. What looks ok could be corroded inside, I guess. 2-17 will be my start

2 is the down and I've just cross checked it goes to 17 and it is indeed green and yellow. I will test by a basic wire test, tomorrow. If that doesn't work I will take the key barrel apart again but physically bridge the contacts. If that doesn't work then it has to be the board.

I'm basically working this all out using the wiring manual I have. But still not finding out if the relay could work for one and not for another if they use the same terminals (Original Post).

I'll leave it until tomorrow. It's all stripped and ready anyways.

[KERRSURF]

speak to yoshie, he has a working relay box for sale I think if it's an easier option.

[Sylux]

Will do...but I have the whole thing dismantled (back of the interior) so I can have a proper play tomorrow. Previously it was just the tailgate I had stripped.

Board is right next to me here.

I'll properly test the circuit tomorrow and if all fails...solder in the new relay.

If that fails...get onto Yoshie

[oneidadan]

I had same problem, turned out to be the wiring to the key. Underneath the tailgate, surprisingly not where there was much movement. The wire looked fine but after cutting into it (in quite possibly the luckiest thing that's ever happened to me) the break in the internal wire was exactly where I'd made the cut..put in a connector and it worked fine again.

[Sylux]

Now that IS luck! Hope you put the lottery on that day

[Sylux]

Having all of the interior panel off (side wall) has allowed proper testing.

And not getting an answer on the relay question (from searching etc) allowed me time to identify wires etc.

As I said earlier...I would start at 2-17 terminals.

Well...yep...the green-yellow on that circuit is shot, somewhere.

Now to wire in a replacement and enjoy happy key-down days

[Sylux]

Dismantled the tailgate again. Removed everything so I could have a stress free access to all wire routes.

Wired in a new wire along the routes and also took apart the loom sleeve and grommet to do it properly.

Labelled it for future owners, put it back together and BOOM!...I now have the down-key working beautifully.

Couldn't have done it without dismantling the interior trim (side panels) nor without the wiring diagrams.

Anyone finding this in future searches...no answer was given about the replays. But I can be 99% positive that if the up and down works with one control device (back or front switch)...then your relay is fine.

[Sylux]

PS: